Is my 410H kaputt ?

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Mick
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Is my 410H kaputt ?

Post by Mick » Sat Mar 02, 2019 9:54 am

Hi there,

ive bought my 410H used about 5 years ago.
From the very beginning, the amp sounded rather cold then warm.

I noticed the Volume in clean channel, upper right, had no effect on green, just bound to master with that.
Is that normal ?
When playing clean, the tone is not properly coming, sounds bad, thin anyhow, so bad that i thought my guitar is broke, but i compared the guitar to a similar model and its ok.

When i play the amp in lower volumes on channels 3 and 4, the channel volumes ~5-7, master ~2-3, it sound rather good, but when i turn up the volume, master over 6, the amp starts shouting screws, the sound totally changes.

Master volume 7-10 has mainly no noticeable effect, its not going louder, the sound is unchanged.
Also, in loud conditions, well .. my friend has a tone studio, he said the amp sounds broke.

The distortion sounds muddy over all, never got a saw, more kind of a chainsaw.
When you hit the string, its like the signal starts with a negative amplitude before it gets out to be actual a tone, im missing the "direct" response.
Im talking about 1/100-1/10 second frames.
Compared to a Randel EoD88 its leaking hard, the EoD is very instantly responding.

I bring my amp to a service center to let em change the tubes, but what, if its the same then ?
Has anyone noticed such things on the 410h ?

Im kinda worried, even my hybrid Vox stack sounds amazing compared to my JVM.

What would you say ?

Cheers, Mick from Germany ^^

DalyCro
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Re: Is my 410H kaputt ?

Post by DalyCro » Sat Mar 02, 2019 11:09 am

Volume pot on clean green channel doesn't work by default. That's normal.

The best start to troubleshoot a JVM is changing all the tubes and set bias.
Test the amp afterwards.
While biasing look around pcb board to check if previous owner messed with it or maybe did some modification.
Also, while "inside", check if transformers works as it should and if there is some strange visual crap around components.
Most electronic guys knows if some component would act weird (or its broken) by look at it.

Report back with findings.

Tchues.
JVM 205H (OD2>OD1 mod; -ve fb), Marshall 4x12 Greenback. SG standard with 490R/498T. LP Bonamassa sig with BB2/BB3. Strat 60's custom with BK Mother's Milk.G&L Asat tele with MFD.

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Re: Is my 410H kaputt ?

Post by erpece » Sat Mar 02, 2019 11:54 am

Hi Mick,

Not sure your JVM is kaputt...

Based on your evaluation, I am surprised you have kept that amp for 5 years and not sold it or taken it to a tech yet... The weird sound you describe could be tube related. The cold or stiff feel could be a low bias setting. Taking it to a tech to make sure sounds like a good idea.

Like Dalycro said, the clean channel volume is bypassed in green mode by design.

It is perfectly normal that the master volume of a (tube) amp does not add volume after a certain point. Especially if you are driving the power amp section pretty hard already. It is also normal that the sound changes at louder volumes - this is mostly due to the speaker having to work harder.

I don't want to insult you in any way, but I am getting the impression that you are not very familiar with this amp even though you have had it for 5 years. Anyone here on the forum will tell you that it takes time to learn how to get the tone you are after. If I were you, I would re-read the manual, browse through topics on how to get your tones on this forum and spend more time with your JVM.

If you like Marshall tones this is a great amp. Otherwise, it may not be the right amp for you.
Amp: Marshall JVM410HJS (nov 2012 - present), JVM410H (apr 2007 - dec 2012)
Cab: 1960B with 2 Heritage G12M's and 2 G12T75's, Two Notes Torpedo Live (with home-made IR of my cab)
FX: Line6 Helix, Rocktron Banshee
Guitars: Warmoth Explorer (Bareknuckle Black Dog), Gibson Les Paul Classic (BK Black Dog), Ibanez 1979 Iceman (BK Rebel Yells), EBMM Axis (BK Rebel Yells), Custom PRS (BK Black Dog) and a few more

Mick
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Re: Is my 410H kaputt ?

Post by Mick » Sat Mar 02, 2019 1:35 pm

I dont know nothing about the inside of my Amp, i should start learning it, but for now ill bring it to service.
Learning this Amp is a long road to me, because all the knobs are VERY sensitive, changing the tone A LOT even on minimal adjustments.
That made it so complicated for me, to find "my" tone.
Im a solo guitar player and exacly the higher notes missing the balls i want, there is just a thin tone on the higher notes, not so in lower notes.
Thats also, what makes this Amp sound cold.

Ive got it at home for some weeks, especially to find more tones, but that was all in living room volumes.
The sound was amazing, i wish it would keep it up, but the volume seems to boost the whole tone to the lower and thin it out to the higher fequencies.

Well, thanks for replys, ill report back when that thing is checked by a teck.

Cheers, Mick^^

Andy
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Re: Is my 410H kaputt ?

Post by Andy » Sun Mar 03, 2019 12:28 pm

You also have to take into consideration guitar leads, speaker leads and speakers , even pickup heights on your guitar, as it's all a chain and just one part of the chain can affect everything . Try a friends cab if you can.

have a read of

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=3721#p32222
|----- if this forum helped you, pls donate to keep it alive -----|
::: JVM410 head,modded:- Hammond 5H choke, 2 tubes pulled, 37.5mv bias :: Caseys Mods :- Plexi cap, -ve feedback, Dual Rectifier, Blackface, 1 wire Randy Rhoads, Plexi, Metaled Out ModPI Boost, OD Channel Gain Reduction Mod
::: AFD100, DSL100W head (no C83), Fender Champ 12
::: 1960AV 2xgreenbacks 2xG12H30, homemade 2x12 cab 2x Celestion Golds (100W)
::: Gibson Les Paul Standard, Dimarzio SD bridge Pup,Standard neck Pup.
::: Tokai Strat with Dimarzio SD, Epi SG-400 Iommi, Hondo Les Paul, Alhambra Acoustic fishman Pup
::: PodXTLive, Vox V848 Clyde McCoy Wah Wah,

It's better to fail in Originality than to succeed in Imitation ...

MonstersOfTheMidway
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Re: Is my 410H kaputt ?

Post by MonstersOfTheMidway » Mon Mar 04, 2019 11:58 pm

Mick wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 9:54 am
Hi there,

ive bought my 410H used about 5 years ago.
From the very beginning, the amp sounded rather cold then warm.

I noticed the Volume in clean channel, upper right, had no effect on green, just bound to master with that.
Is that normal ?
When playing clean, the tone is not properly coming, sounds bad, thin anyhow, so bad that i thought my guitar is broke, but i compared the guitar to a similar model and its ok.

When i play the amp in lower volumes on channels 3 and 4, the channel volumes ~5-7, master ~2-3, it sound rather good, but when i turn up the volume, master over 6, the amp starts shouting screws, the sound totally changes.

Master volume 7-10 has mainly no noticeable effect, its not going louder, the sound is unchanged.
Also, in loud conditions, well .. my friend has a tone studio, he said the amp sounds broke.

The distortion sounds muddy over all, never got a saw, more kind of a chainsaw.
When you hit the string, its like the signal starts with a negative amplitude before it gets out to be actual a tone, im missing the "direct" response.
Im talking about 1/100-1/10 second frames.
Compared to a Randel EoD88 its leaking hard, the EoD is very instantly responding.

I bring my amp to a service center to let em change the tubes, but what, if its the same then ?
Has anyone noticed such things on the 410h ?

Im kinda worried, even my hybrid Vox stack sounds amazing compared to my JVM.

What would you say ?

Cheers, Mick from Germany ^^
What's interesting is that according to the quote above, the OP purchased his 410H five years ago, but only now does OP realized that the volume control has no effect in clean channel/green mode. I'm sorry, but the owner's manual has been available for more than 10 years now with this kind of basic information, not to mention information that can be found in this website as well as other sites where this is well documented. Maybe I'm missing some information that explains the five years.

Additionally, for all the complaints about the tone, I wonder if in those five years of ownership whether any of the tubes have ever been changed. I realized that the OP is going to take the amp in for servicing(which OP says will include a tube change). All this has got me wondering: if tubes haven't been changed in five years, perhaps the bias hasn't been checked in as long, too. True, I've had tubes that have lasted at least five years (e.g. my original 410H power tubes went way past 5 years), but it's kind strange to not know a basic fact like the volume control in clean channel/green mode is not taken out of the circuit given that that the information is available in the owner's handbook/manual.

I'm only speculating here, but the post above seems odd. I could believe that the OP might be leaving out some details (which is not my fault for not knowing), but it just seems like some basic knowledge is missing.

Mick
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Re: Is my 410H kaputt ?

Post by Mick » Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:02 pm

Hello MonstersOfTheMidway,

there is no need to talk to me in 3rd person, you can talk to me directly.
What's interesting is that according to the quote above, the OP purchased his 410H five years ago, but only now does OP realized that the volume control has no effect in clean channel/green mode
I never mentioned i noticed this now, in fact i noticed this at first day already and assumed it was how it works on this amp.
Maybe I'm missing some information that explains the five years.
Yes, obviously you did.
I'm only speculating here, but the post above seems odd. I could believe that the OP might be leaving out some details (which is not my fault for not knowing), but it just seems like some basic knowledge is missing.
Yes, you are speculating and make sure, you are out of any fault, but you seem to rubb on my credibility by questioning my integrity.
The american way of life, i bet you are from the USA, are you ?

So let me give you the missing piece of knowledge.
The first years i have been in a band of 6 musicans in total, 2 git, 1 bass, 1 keyboard, drums and vocals.
As long as the rather disciplined meetings went on, i never had a reason to let the amp shout out. The sound was always superb, sticking with Master max on 3.
That situation changed, when i was recently creating a new, second band of only 3 musicans, drums, bass and me.
In that somewhat more maddafaggin doom metal environment i had the freedom to pump up the volume and that was when i noticed some oddies, like i.e. the sound changing drastically with a higher volume.

Now lets look, what you contributed here.

Right, nothing then questioning me, wich is ofcause not your fault.
Was the whole intention of your post really only to jump on me ?
You know what ?.. get of my lawn!

erpece
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Re: Is my 410H kaputt ?

Post by erpece » Fri Mar 08, 2019 5:24 pm

Mick wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 1:35 pm
I dont know nothing about the inside of my Amp, i should start learning it, but for now ill bring it to service.
Learning this Amp is a long road to me, because all the knobs are VERY sensitive, changing the tone A LOT even on minimal adjustments.
That made it so complicated for me, to find "my" tone.
Yep, it can be a long road - don't give up ;-)
Mick wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 1:35 pm
Im a solo guitar player and exacly the higher notes missing the balls i want, there is just a thin tone on the higher notes, not so in lower notes.
Thats also, what makes this Amp sound cold.
The thin tone is a common complaint. There are a few mods here on the forum that will take care of that. Maybe something to discuss with an amp tech if you plan on seeing one to have it checked anyway.
Mick wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 1:35 pm
Ive got it at home for some weeks, especially to find more tones, but that was all in living room volumes.
The sound was amazing, i wish it would keep it up, but the volume seems to boost the whole tone to the lower and thin it out to the higher fequencies.
Ah yes, dialing in great tones at a certain volume will work for THAT volume. I rented our rehearsal studio by myself one night just to dial in my tone at higher volumes. Big difference.

Also, at bedroom volumes there isn't a lot of difference between speakers. The unique character of a speaker (type) will only present itself at rehearsal or stage volumes. Some speakers sound harsh, adding to the thin tone you mention. Others have a warmer sound, compensating for thin tones or piercing highs. But get your amp checked first.

Cheers and have a good weekend.
Rob
Amp: Marshall JVM410HJS (nov 2012 - present), JVM410H (apr 2007 - dec 2012)
Cab: 1960B with 2 Heritage G12M's and 2 G12T75's, Two Notes Torpedo Live (with home-made IR of my cab)
FX: Line6 Helix, Rocktron Banshee
Guitars: Warmoth Explorer (Bareknuckle Black Dog), Gibson Les Paul Classic (BK Black Dog), Ibanez 1979 Iceman (BK Rebel Yells), EBMM Axis (BK Rebel Yells), Custom PRS (BK Black Dog) and a few more

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Re: Is my 410H kaputt ?

Post by Greg_L » Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:08 pm

Mick wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:02 pm


Yes, you are speculating and make sure, you are out of any fault, but you seem to rubb on my credibility by questioning my integrity.
The american way of life, i bet you are from the USA, are you ?

Don't go there, krautboy. Most of us terrible Americans have at least managed to figure out the JVM.
My gear list? Do a search.

Mick
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Re: Is my 410H kaputt ?

Post by Mick » Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:53 pm

Greg_L wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:08 pm
Mick wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:02 pm


Yes, you are speculating and make sure, you are out of any fault, but you seem to rubb on my credibility by questioning my integrity.
The american way of life, i bet you are from the USA, are you ?

Don't go there, krautboy. Most of us terrible Americans have at least managed to figure out the JVM.
krautboy smilie=icon_lol.gif
Nah man, im from the north, here rules potato [smilie=icon_mrgreen.gif]
Figuring out is also not my issue, but i admid, i love America <3

@Rob
Thanks for your answer.
Finding a good amp tech here is a hard job.
The best 2 techies i knew over the last 40 years have died ... the one thats left in a radius of 30km is a halfhearty full commercialist.
I think ill do it best by myself, change the tubes and set the bias, just learning it.
This forums is full of that stuff and what i read for now shows my amp is not broke but the tubes may be aged and the bias set too cold.
Ive bought that amp used already, dont even care for its age ^^
Im gonna learn now about different tubes and what they change. Once i found them, im gonna order them and set the bias.

peace \m/

erpece
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Re: Is my 410H kaputt ?

Post by erpece » Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:26 am

Mick wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:53 pm
...
I think ill do it best by myself, change the tubes and set the bias, just learning it.
This forums is full of that stuff and what i read for now shows my amp is not broke but the tubes may be aged and the bias set too cold.
Ive bought that amp used already, dont even care for its age ^^
Im gonna learn now about different tubes and what they change. Once i found them, im gonna order them and set the bias.

peace \m/
Yeah, you can do that yourself if you have a basic understanding of electronics and what you are doing. Tube aging does occur, especially with power tubes, but not as fast as most people believe. But they can break down and you can never be sure what happened to an amp if you get one used.

Just make sure the new power tubes are a matched quad. I prefer SED winged C's or Tung Sols, but in the end the brand does not make a huge difference.
Amp: Marshall JVM410HJS (nov 2012 - present), JVM410H (apr 2007 - dec 2012)
Cab: 1960B with 2 Heritage G12M's and 2 G12T75's, Two Notes Torpedo Live (with home-made IR of my cab)
FX: Line6 Helix, Rocktron Banshee
Guitars: Warmoth Explorer (Bareknuckle Black Dog), Gibson Les Paul Classic (BK Black Dog), Ibanez 1979 Iceman (BK Rebel Yells), EBMM Axis (BK Rebel Yells), Custom PRS (BK Black Dog) and a few more

CaptNasty
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Re: Is my 410H kaputt ?

Post by CaptNasty » Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:44 pm

Mick wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:02 pm
The american way of life, i bet you are from the USA, are you ?
Mick wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:53 pm
Figuring out is also not my issue, but i admid, i love America <3
So you throw a judgemental barb about Americans and the “American way of life” out there, then want to hide behind “I love America”.

I will give the respect to Europeans at large of not insulting and stereotyping an entire continent. So I will say to you personally: Piss. off.

May the fleas of a thousand camels infest your arm pits and may a syphylitic donkey develop an abiding affection for your bum.
Last edited by CaptNasty on Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Charvel Satchel Signature Pro Mod DK - Re-finished, OFR, Schaller tuners (2018)
USA Jackson SL2H (2015)
Jackson RR5 (2009)
Ovation Collectors Series (2007)
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Greg_L
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Re: Is my 410H kaputt ?

Post by Greg_L » Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:21 pm

CaptNasty wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:44 pm
So you throw a judgemental barb about Americans and the “American way of life” out there, then want to hide behind “I love America”.

I will give the respect to Europeans at large of not insulting and stereotyping an entire continent. So I will say to you personally: Piss. off.

May the fleas of a thousand camels infest your arm pits.
You know, you can give the Germans some credit. They make really good cars and they really raised the bar for horrific genocide to a level that will likely never be matched.

But they did lose two big wars - wars that they pretty much started - and came out on the very wrong end of history because of it, so he might be a little salty about America. smilie=icon_lol.gif
My gear list? Do a search.

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Re: Is my 410H kaputt ?

Post by okgb » Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:13 pm

We should take the high road and keep this forum positive , eh?
there'll always be people who ask questions expecting certain answers or ask without doing enough research
But being all things JVM , oughta be able to find any answer here! [ somewhere ! ] and being better informed makes for better questions
to OP , keep looking & digging
Amps JVM 410H [too many mods to mention ] '73 50w lead, 70's vibrochamp , mesa mkIII U.S. Vox pacemaker
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Gtr's Musicanman " Luke " wolfgang [ carved top w pearly gates ] Hondo lazer , Warmoth strat
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Pedals tbone plexi , t.c. chorus , various handmade & usual suspects t.s. , zen , CB wah ..........

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Re: Is my 410H kaputt ?

Post by CaptNasty » Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:24 am

okgb wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:13 pm
We should take the high road and keep this forum positive , eh?
there'll always be people who ask questions expecting certain answers or ask without doing enough research
But being all things JVM , oughta be able to find any answer here! [ somewhere ! ] and being better informed makes for better questions
to OP , keep looking & digging
Yes we should. But when the OP wants to cast stones about an entire country, it is not about his research or knowledge and he gets what he gets...
USA Jackson Dinky DK1 Custom Shop (2018)
Ibanez JEM 7V WH - Japan (2005)
Suhr Modern Custom (2010)
Ibanez J Custom RG1502S - Japan (1998)
Gibson Les Paul Axcess Alex Lifeson Signature (2012)
Fender American Standard 60th Anniversary Commemorative Stratocaster (2014)
Charvel Satchel Signature Pro Mod DK - Re-finished, OFR, Schaller tuners (2018)
USA Jackson SL2H (2015)
Jackson RR5 (2009)
Ovation Collectors Series (2007)
Marshall JVM 410 HJS - Stock (4CM)
Fractal Audio Axe FX III (4CM & FRFR)
Marshall 1960 TV (4CM)
XiTone Michael Britt Active 1x12 (FRFR)
Fractal Audio Systems FC-6
EBTech Hum Eliminator HE-8
Furman P-1800 AR
Furman P-1800 PF R

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