Sold my JVM & got an Axe-Fx

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gezza
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Re: Sold my JVM & got an Axe-Fx

Post by gezza » Sat Dec 20, 2014 9:33 pm

Hey Guys,

I got the Kemper over the Axe-Fx for one reason only.

Axe-Fx has had to change models 3 or 4 times. Due to more power or storage.
Meaning what you just spent your hard earned cash on, is now superseded. Are you serious.
Man you have to get the latest model to get the latest Amps, blah, blah.
Poor marketing to me, or is it smart marketing.
Showing all the hottest Guitar Players, using the latest model.

Kemper still only has the one model, just added Power rack and powered head.
One day I may even go back, but not at the moment.

I've played with Amps without amps, I did 12 Months with just a GT8, and getting some really awesome tones.
People would come up to me and say, Hey where is your amp, I go on the floor.

So we can tune almost anything to sound great, if you are prepared to work at it.

If you can get a great sound out of it, then who cares what it is, enjoy.
Because, something new is just around the corner.

Gezza's thought for the day. [smiley-shreds]
JVM410HJS
Marshall 1936 - Loaded with Vintage 30's.
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Re: Sold my JVM & got an Axe-Fx

Post by gearjunkie » Sat Dec 20, 2014 10:45 pm

Axe-Fx has had to change models 3 or 4 times. Due to more power or storage.
Meaning what you just spent your hard earned cash on, is now superseded. Are you serious.
See this is what I'm talking about. Where do you guys get this info? The Axe FX 2 is the second generation it's been around for around 4 years now and is the current model. (The XL is the Axe Fx 2 with the new FAS link adapter added to it and an additional bank for presets. Exact same engine) Nothing has been superseded nothing added to make another obsolete. All they've done is continually improve the firmware and add new amps, effects, cabs, etc to it for FREE!!!!
Fractal Audio Axe FX II
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Matrix GT1000FX power amp
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Re: Sold my JVM & got an Axe-Fx

Post by wolbai » Sun Dec 21, 2014 11:42 am

First of all: I have never owned an AXE-FX modeller, but I do have a 5 years history of intensive modelling usage with Line6 products as a gigging rig (POD X3 Live, POD HD500, James Tyler Variax modelling/magnetic PU guitars, DT-50 amp with a digital pre section and an analog power section).

One may say that Line6 modelling products are not comparable with an AXE-FX and that they are playing in a different league. This is probably (partially) right from a quality perspective.
But my experience with modellers and the reason why I have changed to the "tube amp road" are pointing in a different direction and this is: simplicity and practicality for gigging with a band.


I can see real benefits with a premium modeller like the AXE-FX for studio recordings and home usage. But I had negative experience when using these products in my gigging rig:

Any modeller vendor tells you that it is very smart to have the freedom to choose out of 20 amps and 20 cabs with a tip on a button ... [smiley-facepalm]

In reality it is pretty much time consuming just to replace ONE amp in a band (with 2 guitar players): it is not only to simply switch the amp on: We all know that it takes time to understand this amp, how to dial in EQ-settings which satisfy yourself and most of all will cut well through the band mix. The same applies to the cabs: just changing a cab can make all the difference in a gigging rig. Just make up your mind and think about all these threads in just the JVM forum.

SO:

- HOW MANY SMART GUYS ARE OUT THERE WHO CAN REALLY MANAGE 20 AMPS AND 20 CABS IN A BAND CONTEXT WITH FREQUENT GIGS ???
- HOW MANY GIGGING RIGS HAVE YOU SEEN WITH MORE THAN TWO AMPS ON A STAGE ???

To answer my own question: not that many ... for good reasons.

A completely different story to me is the usage of a Multi-FX digital unit just for effects and as a midi-controller. I can see real practical usage and versatility in a gigging rig with them.

So I am not singing the simple song "modeller do not sound as good as real tube amps": I can fairly confirm (even with a POD HD500) that modellers do sound pretty good once they are tweaked correctly with that specific know how you need to have from the real amp and cabs. But the modeller will not help you to adapt your new equipment in a band context. This remains (at minimum) the same as with standard analog equipment.

I have switched from a modelling rig (with some analog components) to a JVM410h (not mods so far) six months ago and I have incooperated my Line6 POD HD500 as an effects unit and midi-controller. This is a great combination to me and it combines (pretty subjective) "best of both worlds".
But it is not so much the JVM410h, it is more the simplicity a 3-4 channel tube amp with midi can offer to adapt to gigging environments.

Currently I am closely monitoring the availability of the new FX8 announcement of Fractal Audio system (multi-FX floorboard with midi controller functions). This could be a pretty interesting alternative to my current POD HD500 as far as the marketing material tells me.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
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Re: Sold my JVM & got an Axe-Fx

Post by gezza » Sun Dec 21, 2014 9:38 pm

So why didn't you buy the Axe- FX one then?
Because they want to market them like computers.
More Storage, faster Ram, more bells and whistles, ect.
That was the point I was trying to make.
I do know they get support.

I would love to have a Axe - Fx for a month and test it and Jam with it.

But I just prefer plug it in and play.

I just find, you end up looking or trying to duplicator the sound you all ready have.

Cheers,

Gezza. [smiley-shreds]
JVM410HJS
Marshall 1936 - Loaded with Vintage 30's.
Fender USA Strat Deluxe.
Fender USA Strat Deluxe FSR Ice Blue.
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Re: Sold my JVM & got an Axe-Fx

Post by atarilovesyou » Sun Dec 21, 2014 10:14 pm

What I also find interesting is the fact that the OP found he liked the models of the JVM on the AxFX even better than the real thing. That...makes no sense to me whatsoever. Unless the reason it's 'better' is because it gives you the ability to EQ it in a way that could never be done on the actual amp (well, without an EQ or something like that).

The OP hasn't said much of anything on this thread, and this isn't the first time I've seen posts like that. Kinda like lobbing in a grenade and watching the fun :D And I don't think anybody is going too crazy at this point...lol.

But honestly: nothing should sound better than the real thing. If you find that to be the case...well, it shouldn't ever be the case, so I'll leave it at that.

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Re: Sold my JVM & got an Axe-Fx

Post by gearjunkie » Mon Dec 22, 2014 12:32 am

So why didn't you buy the Axe- FX one then?
By the time I actually started looking into this unit the Axe FX 2 was already out and the standard/ultra was discontinued. I intended on buying the first one used but the deal breaker for me was that it didn't have USB. It was upgraded and controlled with the editor through midi. I didn't have that capability on my PC at the time.
Fractal Audio Axe FX II
Fractal Audio MFC 101
Matrix GT1000FX power amp
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Re: Sold my JVM & got an Axe-Fx

Post by Mr_Moo » Mon Dec 22, 2014 11:13 am

atarilovesyou wrote:
But honestly: nothing should sound better than the real thing. If you find that to be the case...well, it shouldn't ever be the case, so I'll leave it at that.
But the model is not quite the same as the real thing (as is to be expected). Why can't someone prefer the model on it's merits? (As opposed to rejecting it for being not quite right). After all, some people like to modify the JVM to improve the amp (in their opinion), why can't the small differences in the Axe model be "better" to the OP?

Is this really any different to Jim Marshall building a copy of Leo's circuit, and doing it slightly differently? The end result is a slightly different amp, so if the Princeton is the gold standard, then all Marshalls are inferior to all Fenders (as some people seem to genuinely believe). On the other hand, if you happen to like the sound and feel of what Jim built, then you're allowed to prefer the Marshall version. Same with the digital versions of analogue amps.
Play it like it's the last time it'll ever be heard.

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Re: Sold my JVM & got an Axe-Fx

Post by Tonemeister » Mon Dec 22, 2014 2:52 pm

Casey_Butt wrote:Options are certainly nice, but there does come a point when you spend too much time tinkering and not enough time playing. I mean that in general, not just with regard to modelling amps. You never get really good at something unless you spend enough time at it to develop. If all these options existed decades ago we almost certainly wouldn't have many of the classic tones that came as a result of "working with what you got".
I think this sums it up nicely for me and hits the nail on the head as to why I went back to tube amps.

When I had all the options available I spent all my time skipping through presets as they are great starting points. I tweak them a little, get tired of it and start playing with the next preset... and so on. There is no real reason to ever stay on any particular choice you made... so rather than getting a particular set of models (amp, effects, cabs...) to sound its best the easier thing to do is pick a new model and slightly twist some knobs.

I think somebody here mentioned that on the fancier models you can even fine tune your bias settings, change "pre-amp tube" models... you almost have the same level of control as you do on a real amp. But does anybody really take the time to tweak these things? When you're not quite happy with a tone do you then tweak all those little details or do you dial up a new starting point? What about if you use many different amp models... does anybody ever tweak them to get the best out of them?

When I wasn't quite happy with a tone my first instinct was to check out some of the other presets to get a "new idea"... I never got getting the "best" out of any preset I think. I had lots of really good tones but none were really quite how I wanted them to sound (they were all only "pretty close"). On the other hand, my JVM after some mods is exactly how I want to sound... really
- Marshall JVM410H: Negative Feedback Mod (33k-500k, linear), Compression Mod, One-Wire Cascade Mod, OD2-to-OD1 Mod, P.I. Boost Mod (with 33k in R52), Plexi Cap Mod (1uF), Modified C83 Mod (1- OFF, 2- 0.68uF, 3- 1.0uF, 4- 1.5uF, 5- 2.2uF, 6- 3.2uF), Gain Reduction Mod, Blackface Mod, Mesa Rectifier Mod, 50W (two tubes: 37.5mV), LED Footswitch Mod
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Re: Sold my JVM & got an Axe-Fx

Post by atarilovesyou » Tue Dec 23, 2014 4:24 am

Mr_Moo wrote:
atarilovesyou wrote:
But honestly: nothing should sound better than the real thing. If you find that to be the case...well, it shouldn't ever be the case, so I'll leave it at that.
But the model is not quite the same as the real thing (as is to be expected). Why can't someone prefer the model on it's merits? (As opposed to rejecting it for being not quite right). After all, some people like to modify the JVM to improve the amp (in their opinion), why can't the small differences in the Axe model be "better" to the OP?

Is this really any different to Jim Marshall building a copy of Leo's circuit, and doing it slightly differently? The end result is a slightly different amp, so if the Princeton is the gold standard, then all Marshalls are inferior to all Fenders (as some people seem to genuinely believe). On the other hand, if you happen to like the sound and feel of what Jim built, then you're allowed to prefer the Marshall version. Same with the digital versions of analogue amps.
I'm not saying what people should or shouldn't prefer, I'm just saying that a modeller (or any digital representation of a guitar tone) has one main reason for existing: to give someone the ability to have a tone without having the amp. It's meant to be a copy. Jim Marshall did not intend to copy a Fender amp, although it gave him a ballpark tone to aim for.

If the replica is 'better' than the thing its trying to copy, then in a way it's not really doing a good job of copying that tone. That's where I mentioned the fact you can tweak amp models in ways that the original amp was never intended for; of course, some of those tweaks sound good but you're not really playing 'that amp' anymore...and I'd even argue that what you like is something completely different that whatever set of parameters the programmers intended for that amp. You digitally accomplished what a physical mod does, and you're not really playing a JVM anymore. Whether or not that's important to you is another topic together...people generally tend to play whatever gets them going, and for some, nothing out of the box will accomplish that. And it's not like modding is something new to the amp world.

So of course, like what you like...but no modeller should (by the very definition of amp modelling) ever sound better than the gear its designed to copy, and that's just my opinion.

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Re: Sold my JVM & got an Axe-Fx

Post by Andy » Tue Dec 23, 2014 8:59 am

atarilovesyou wrote:
Mr_Moo wrote:
atarilovesyou wrote:
So of course, like what you like...but no modeller should (by the very definition of amp modelling) ever sound better than the gear its designed to copy, and that's just my opinion.
Not sure about that - for instance Slash's favourite guitar is a copy of a Gibson Les Paul.

Sometimes by accident or design, a copy can be better than the original ... "better" being a subjective opinion.

I think having both is the ideal, I for one can never have too much gear [smiley-shreds]
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Re: Sold my JVM & got an Axe-Fx

Post by erpece » Tue Dec 23, 2014 11:19 am

Mr_Moo wrote: ...
Is this really any different to Jim Marshall building a copy of Leo's circuit, and doing it slightly differently?
...
Off topic:
I believed this to be the case, until I recently watched a Marshall documentary. Turns out that Jim and his tech DID analyse a Fender amp (supposedly the best amp then) only to discover it didn't have anything out of the ordinairy based on what was common practice in tube amp circuitry in the day. It just had more power than any other amp and caused the commonly used (low rated) speakers to distort. However, the Fender's power tubes (6L6?) were not availiable in Europe at the time, so they were forced to design their own amp based on EL34's. If that had not been the case, EL34's may never had been used in guitar amps... go figure.

It's a nice story. I suppose whether or not Marshall actually copied Fender's design depends on wo's talking - Fender or Marshall... [smilie=icon_mrgreen.gif]
Amp: Marshall JVM410HJS (nov 2012 - present), JVM410H (apr 2007 - dec 2012)
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Re: Sold my JVM & got an Axe-Fx

Post by atarilovesyou » Tue Dec 23, 2014 8:52 pm

Andy wrote:
atarilovesyou wrote:
Mr_Moo wrote:
atarilovesyou wrote:
So of course, like what you like...but no modeller should (by the very definition of amp modelling) ever sound better than the gear its designed to copy, and that's just my opinion.
Not sure about that - for instance Slash's favourite guitar is a copy of a Gibson Les Paul.

Sometimes by accident or design, a copy can be better than the original ... "better" being a subjective opinion.

I think having both is the ideal, I for one can never have too much gear [smiley-shreds]

I'm of the opinion that what Slash owns is not a Les Paul, but we can go down the rabbit hole forever. In terms of instruments, one can always rebuild something with upgraded parts and all that...but is it really a Les Paul, or Strat, or whatever? I guess I replaced my crappy YJM Strat's original bridge with an upgrade part, and I still consider it a Strat. Marshall guys replace their power transformers all the time...one could argue that the design is a sum of the parts, even if some of those parts are less than 'military grade hardwear'.

I guess I'll stick to my guns, regarding digital emulation/modelling/whatever. As they are digital representations of something physical/analog/mojoriffic. But the argument can be made either way, of course.

I still would prefer the real deal over a digital representation until the tech reaches my criteria for satisfaction (stated earlier in this thread).

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Re: Sold my JVM & got an Axe-Fx

Post by kmanick » Sat Jan 24, 2015 9:31 pm

I've had the Axe FXII and a CLR for about 2 years now (I even had the NEO version of the wedge).
I too almost liked the OD1 Orange amp model better than the real thing........................ until
I took it to rehearsal. My other guitarists Bogner Shiva squashed it, and It wasn't a volume thing it was a 'spacial thing" when I was playing alone it sounded pretty good, but when he kicked in I disappeared. I also absolutely hated playing through a Monitor. I felt completely disconnected from my guitar. I really hated it..............so much so that I just sold my CLR and have on the fence about dumping the Axe II altogether, and the CLR is supposed to be the "cream of the crop".
Still sounded like a PA monitor to me. My bandmates hated it.
I'm using the Axe II in 4CM mode now with my JVM just for effects.
It's a blast to use to record with but for gigging....................I'll stick to the real thing thank you very much.
I think the Modeling is getting really good , FRFR.....it's just not for me.
JVM210H-NegFB mod, Od2-Od1 Mod-Plexi Mod, Od gain reduction Mod
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Re: Sold my JVM & got an Axe-Fx

Post by okgb » Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:29 pm

Just to update this thread, Kemper calls their unit a " profiler " and indeed using it's tone pulses you can " capture " your whole recording chain
mic , mic preamp , amp & cab , or just the amp if you want to go direct and add a speaker IR later
Although it captures one setting and not the whole amp and all it's settings , the tone controls are post amp profile and the same for all profiles
That being said seems allot of people are using them partly because of convenience [ light easier to transport for fly gigs ] and bring their exact
recorded sounds to use on stage.
Line 6 now has the Helix , it has models but can use a slaved head in one of it's loops for real amp sound , can't profile like the kemper but the controls
" acts " more like a real amp as well as the fractal
the avid Eleven [ digidesign amp modeler ] are now producing the headrush , similar to the helix

They all seem to have one thing they do better than the others , but no definitive clear winner
Amps JVM 410H [too many mods to mention ] '73 50w lead, 70's vibrochamp , mesa mkIII U.S. Vox pacemaker
Rock , pop rock & Blues style's mainly played
Gtr's Musicanman " Luke " wolfgang [ carved top w pearly gates ] Hondo lazer , Warmoth strat
Fx t.c. 2290 , Lexicon tc verb
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Re: Sold my JVM & got an Axe-Fx

Post by okgb » Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:07 am

I should add , line 6 has the Helix software available by itself so it's possible to use it , a laptop and interface live
same thing really , different package.
Amps JVM 410H [too many mods to mention ] '73 50w lead, 70's vibrochamp , mesa mkIII U.S. Vox pacemaker
Rock , pop rock & Blues style's mainly played
Gtr's Musicanman " Luke " wolfgang [ carved top w pearly gates ] Hondo lazer , Warmoth strat
Fx t.c. 2290 , Lexicon tc verb
Pedals tbone plexi , t.c. chorus , various handmade & usual suspects t.s. , zen , CB wah ..........

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