Line vs cab comparison.

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RockmanCentral
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Re: Line vs cab comparison.

Post by RockmanCentral » Tue Feb 10, 2015 4:19 pm

atarilovesyou wrote:Rockman, does the type of cable the JS uses for the line out (just a guitar cable from what I can tell) make any difference? The 410H uses a standard XLR out, doesn't it? But you mentioned both line outs sound darker, so probably not?

On my Peavey JSX, you can take a line out from the amp (1/4 inch jack, post power amp signal), or from the JSX cabinet itself: the line out is an XLR cable, and the cabinet has some switches to change the overall character from dark to bright. What does that have to do with the JVM? Nothin'! :)

Is the JS line out the same 'pre-amp only' signal, or does it include the power amp signal too?
I don't think the type of cable is making any difference in the response. My guess is maybe they opted for more bass response so it wouldn't sound thin and also since it's easier to subtract than to add?

The lineout is the same pre-amp only signal. Remember, the point of that was to make it possible to silent record without the power amp needing to be powered up.

BTW, I modded mine on my original JVM with a switch so I could get the signal before the effects loop for "dry" recording. I think it would be sweet to have it on a 3 way switch though: pre effects loop for dry recording, the current location for silent recording, and off the speaker jack for power amp recording or sending it to the PA during live performance.
Gear:
Marshall JVM 410HJS - -ve Feedback
Kemper Profiling Rack
Two Notes Torpedo Live
Marshall 1960 HW Stack - G12H-30's
Marshall 1960 Lead Stack - G12T-75's
Rockman Stack with Rev 20 Sustainor
Rockman XP212, XP100a
Echoplex EP3 - Hyperspace Pedal
Gibson Collectors Choice #10 Tom Scholz 68 Les Paul Goldtop
PRS SE 24 Custom Floyd - Sustainiac, DiMarzio Super Distortion, Graph Tech LB63 Floyd Rose, Acoustiphonic preamp
Jackson Dinky Reverse - Sustainiac, DiMarzio Super Distortion
Epiphone 68 Reissue Les Paul Goldtop

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atarilovesyou
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Re: Line vs cab comparison.

Post by atarilovesyou » Tue Feb 10, 2015 9:27 pm

Tonemeister wrote:
atarilovesyou wrote:... On my Peavey JSX, you can take a line out from the amp (1/4 inch jack, post power amp signal), or from the JSX cabinet itself: the line out is an XLR cable, and the cabinet has some switches to change the overall character from dark to bright...
That is the best damn idea I've ever heard... Line out built into the speaker cab. Is that a common thing for Peavy cabs or is it a JSX thing only?
Since the JSX is the only Peavey gear I own, I can't tell ya. Here's a link to the cabinet manual:

http://assets.peavey.com/literature/manuals/JSX412.pdf

You can take a look at the exact setup. I've got a stack of these. Don't bother looking for reviews online, because all you'll find is negative. I've read all kinds of negative reviews of these cabinets, but I have never had any issue with them. Not like they can be found easily anymore, but I recently contacted Peavey for some info. They're loaded with 'custom' JSX speakers, and there's a matrix somewhere that places them among the other Peavey speakers. But until I got the info from Peavey, finding out something simple like 'how many watts?' each speaker is rated for, that was a mystery. Turns out they're 75 watters. The cabinet itself if built sturdy, solid wood (not press board) and it's got casters, metal corners (which my Marshall 1936 doesn't)...made in the USA. I don't see why there's so many reviews on the neg side. All you read is that they paired a JSX with a Mesa cabinet and life all the sudden was amazing.

Well...I guess the web-experts have spoken, lol, but I can't find fault with them. I've plugged my JVM into the pair and it sounded fantastic. Have yet to do so with my JS. I can't see how much different a well built cabinet fitted with 75 watt speakers can sound from a Marshall 1960 cabinet, but of course I gotta get the Marshalls just because :) I'm like that, as you can see, I had to get the matching speakers for my JSX after all.

With both options for recording (line out of the head or the speaker), funny how I've only used regular mics :D

When I get the Marshall cabs I'm going to put my Satch amps next to each other, shave my head bald, put on some shades and surf with the alien. Ok, I'm not gonna do that. Or maybe I will. But probably not.

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Re: Line vs cab comparison.

Post by Dark Horse » Wed Feb 11, 2015 12:30 am

atarilovesyou wrote:

On my Peavey JSX, you can take a line out from the amp (1/4 inch jack, post power amp signal, or from the JSX cabinet itself: the line out is an XLR cable, and the cabinet has some switches to change the overall character from dark to bright. What does that have to do with the JVM? Nothin'! :)
How is post-power amp Line level? Is that a typo, or am I missing something?

DH
JVM 410H w/Mods: 1µF Plexi Cap, 3H Mojotone Choke, Neg. Feedback Adj. Pot.(500K)

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Re: Line vs cab comparison.

Post by atarilovesyou » Wed Feb 11, 2015 1:47 am

I've probably got it wrong; I'll check the online manual.

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Mr_Moo
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Re: Line vs cab comparison.

Post by Mr_Moo » Wed Feb 11, 2015 9:05 am

There would have to be some sort of de-amplifying circuit, there are boxes that do that, so technically no reason they couldn't build it into head and/or cabinet. I'm surprised it can be done within cost constraints, given how much something like the Torpedo C.A.B. sells for. And putting the same circuit into both head and cab seems rather OTT.

And of course, in the cabinet would have to be passive, which might be a technical challenge.
Play it like it's the last time it'll ever be heard.

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Re: Line vs cab comparison.

Post by Tonemeister » Wed Feb 11, 2015 11:08 pm

Mr_Moo wrote:There would have to be some sort of de-amplifying circuit, there are boxes that do that, so technically no reason they couldn't build it into head and/or cabinet. I'm surprised it can be done within cost constraints, given how much something like the Torpedo C.A.B. sells for. And putting the same circuit into both head and cab seems rather OTT.

And of course, in the cabinet would have to be passive, which might be a technical challenge.
actually it sounds to me like it would be quite economical to produce from a manufacturing perspective... with the cabinet you already have a proper load... all you'd need to do is tap off a small signal and put a basic filter on it (like in the JVM) to emulate a speaker response. Cabinets sells for over $1,000 anyways... add a $200 and a simple circuit and an XLR jack. Of course, the circuit would most likely be passive.

I wonder if I can figure out to make a circuit that I can add to my 1960 cabs... hmmm
- Marshall JVM410H: Negative Feedback Mod (33k-500k, linear), Compression Mod, One-Wire Cascade Mod, OD2-to-OD1 Mod, P.I. Boost Mod (with 33k in R52), Plexi Cap Mod (1uF), Modified C83 Mod (1- OFF, 2- 0.68uF, 3- 1.0uF, 4- 1.5uF, 5- 2.2uF, 6- 3.2uF), Gain Reduction Mod, Blackface Mod, Mesa Rectifier Mod, 50W (two tubes: 37.5mV), LED Footswitch Mod
- Laney AOR ProTube 3012 Combo: stock
- 2x Marshall 1960B 4xG12T-75
- 2x Dean DIME (FBD, Stealth #29/50), ESP LTD MH-250HT, Fender MIM Strat
- TC Electronic PolyTune, ISP Decimator G-String, Morley Mark Tremonti Power Wah, Ibanez TS9, MXR EVH Phase 90, TC Flashback X4, TC Hall Of Fame

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RockmanCentral
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Re: Line vs cab comparison.

Post by RockmanCentral » Thu Feb 12, 2015 1:25 am

Wouldn't it basically be like the RedBox circuit?
As you said, a resistor to tap off a small signal and then filtering for cab emulation.
Gear:
Marshall JVM 410HJS - -ve Feedback
Kemper Profiling Rack
Two Notes Torpedo Live
Marshall 1960 HW Stack - G12H-30's
Marshall 1960 Lead Stack - G12T-75's
Rockman Stack with Rev 20 Sustainor
Rockman XP212, XP100a
Echoplex EP3 - Hyperspace Pedal
Gibson Collectors Choice #10 Tom Scholz 68 Les Paul Goldtop
PRS SE 24 Custom Floyd - Sustainiac, DiMarzio Super Distortion, Graph Tech LB63 Floyd Rose, Acoustiphonic preamp
Jackson Dinky Reverse - Sustainiac, DiMarzio Super Distortion
Epiphone 68 Reissue Les Paul Goldtop

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Re: Line vs cab comparison.

Post by atarilovesyou » Fri Feb 13, 2015 6:14 am

Maybe if Casey is reading this post, he can comment. I see in his sig that he also has a JSX cab (although he's replaced the speakers). He can probably answer the above questions about the operation of the line out on the cab, if he so wishes!

...and if I might ask, Casey, what do you think about the physical build quality of the JSX cabinet?

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Re: Line vs cab comparison.

Post by Tonemeister » Fri Feb 13, 2015 2:41 pm

[quote="atarilovesyou"]Maybe if Casey is reading this post, he can comment. I see in his sig that he also has a JSX cab (although he's replaced the speakers). He can probably answer the above questions about the operation of the line out on the cab, if he so wishes!...quote]+1 [smilie=icon_biggrin.gif]
- Marshall JVM410H: Negative Feedback Mod (33k-500k, linear), Compression Mod, One-Wire Cascade Mod, OD2-to-OD1 Mod, P.I. Boost Mod (with 33k in R52), Plexi Cap Mod (1uF), Modified C83 Mod (1- OFF, 2- 0.68uF, 3- 1.0uF, 4- 1.5uF, 5- 2.2uF, 6- 3.2uF), Gain Reduction Mod, Blackface Mod, Mesa Rectifier Mod, 50W (two tubes: 37.5mV), LED Footswitch Mod
- Laney AOR ProTube 3012 Combo: stock
- 2x Marshall 1960B 4xG12T-75
- 2x Dean DIME (FBD, Stealth #29/50), ESP LTD MH-250HT, Fender MIM Strat
- TC Electronic PolyTune, ISP Decimator G-String, Morley Mark Tremonti Power Wah, Ibanez TS9, MXR EVH Phase 90, TC Flashback X4, TC Hall Of Fame

link to my old band "Systatic" (Line6 Vetta II days) http://www.systatic.ca

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Re: Line vs cab comparison.

Post by Casey_Butt » Fri Feb 13, 2015 3:19 pm

We had a fairly detailed chat about cab emulations here...

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=7929

I find the JVM line out way too dark. I find it usable with EQ, but essentially unusable without. It wouldn't be terribly hard to mod it to correct that though - the mods I posted before are a nudge in the right direction, but you could go much more dramatic with it by simply tweaking the cap values. I didn't want to go too extreme and opted to play it somewhat safe with those mods.

I like the cab emulation line off the JSX cab though - it's just a solid "generic" 4x12 cab emulation. Add an external EQ and I think the JSX Cab emulation can cover just about any ground you'd want to with a 4x12. And as far as capturing the total response of the amp, it's in the right spot to do that. It's on the speaker line, meaning you get the power amp, output transformer, and how the transformer reacts to the speaker impedance all accounted for in the emulated signal. It's EQ'ed well too, meaning no overbearing frequencies anywhere. Joe obviously either provided direct feedback on the voicing of it, or whoever did knew what they were doing.

One interesting thing to note about the JSX Cab emulation is that it lacks the deep notches and spikes you'd get in the mids and upper mids if you close-miked a real 4x12 with a single mic. The JSX emulation is smoother through the mids and upper mids - more like what you'd get with a multiple-miked cab. Using multiple mics on a cab (and at various distances) smooths out the overall response, and that seems to be what the JSX Cab emulation was going for. That's also simpler to emulate, so practically all analogue cab emulations have smooth overall responses. Those little notches and spikes you do see in the JSX Cab emulation frequency response (on the link I posted) are probably influenced by the amp's output transformer reacting to the changing speaker impedance rather than deliberately emulated by the cab em circuit itself (I hadn't realised that in the other thread).

The impulse modellers are usually based on cab impulses taken with a single mic, so they tend to be much notchier/spikier and "complex". One isn't necessarily better than the other, but they are different. People's impressions of them seem to be based on what they're comparing it to. For the typical project studio person who's used to single, close-miked cabs, they probably find the single-mic impulses more "realistic", but I suspect people used to the big-budget pro studios (like Joe) will tend towards the smoother, multiple-miked type emulation. Of course, you could take impulses in a big studio with multiple mics as well (and they probably do), but that doesn't seem to be the trend I've observed with the impulses I've seen.

I don't know about the JSX head or the stock JSX cab speakers - I bought my JSX cab empty.

As for the build quality, it's not as good as my early-'90s Marshall 1960A cab. There's nothing "wrong" with it, but internally it doesn't have the degree of attention to detail and craftsmanship that went into the Marshall. It's sloppier - tolex cut roughly, screws not angled as consistently as the Marshall, etc.

As for materials, the JSX cab has 1/2" poplar plywood sides, the 1960 has 5/8" birch plywood. So the 1960 is a little thicker and birch is generally the preferred wood. Thicker isn't necessarily better though, because some argue that slightly thinner panels allow the cab to resonate better. If that is indeed an audible difference, then the JSX should have a slightly fuller mid presence... more like the old cabs with more flexible baffle boards. Who knows, Joe might have specified the thinner 1/2" poplar sides for that very reason... or it simply might have been an economic decision by Peavey. Either way, I assume Joe was satisfied with it. When I bought it I was aware of the 1/2" poplar sides and figured if anything it might fill out the mids a little and give a little more "vintage" vibe. I now have it loaded with early-'90s U.K. G12M-25's, and I don't know if the cab is contributing much or not but it does sound incredible (though those speakers also sounded equally good when they were in the 1960A). I believe the baffle and rear boards are birch and MDF, respectively, on both cabs.

Personally, I don't have any problem with the quality of the JSX cab. It sounds fine and I don't doubt that it's roadworthy (though mine sits in a home studio), but it isn't quite up to the standard of my Marshall 1960A in terms of attention to detail on the interior construction. I haven't opened any newer 1960A's, so I don't know if they're still the same or not, but my 1960A is very well built.
_ JVM410H: "Blackface" Clean channel, "Plexi" Crunch channel, "Dual Rec" OD2 channel, 3rd stage bias pot with switchable 100nF bypass cap, switchable 470k/470pF "treble peaker", OD1/2 Orange and Red extra gain pot, signal boost into power amp, PI voltage set to 2203 levels, 5H choke w/ 50uF on screens, -ve feedback pot.
_ Marshall 2203/1959 clone - switchable (with FX loop, resonance control and -ve fb pot) built from a Peavey Windsor 'donor' head
_ Fender Deluxe Reverb clone head
_ ADA MP-1, ART Power Plant, Tech 21 PSA-1
_ 1960A cab w/ Celestion G12-65s and G12-75Ts in X-pattern, Peavey JSX cab with Celestion G12M's (UK 6402 cones)
_ Fender Pro 185 (rebuilt) - open back 2x12" with Jensen C12Ks

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Re: Line vs cab comparison.

Post by atarilovesyou » Sat Feb 14, 2015 10:31 pm

Thanks, Casey! I certainly didn't know any of the details of the JSX cabinets. Although now that I look closely, I can see that there are indeed slight gaps in the tolex where it looks like they could have done a nicer job. As far as build quality goes, it's on par with what I thought. And it's interesting to know more about the line out...I almost wonder if he has any plans of putting out matching cabinets for the 410HJS. Although I would think probably not...he's already got blue ones, I suppose! I'm just not a huge fan of blue tolex (or the matching price, lol). Aesthetically, I'd like the piping from the head to match the cabinets...who knows!

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Re: Line vs cab comparison.

Post by Green Manalishi » Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:37 pm

Not only the influence of the power amp is lost, but also that of the speaker. I've spent too much money and taken a long time to find my perfect speakers for my tone to just bypass them.

In my case, it's 4x12 of celestion golds
Marshall JVM410H
Marshall 1960B Celestion Golds
Vox AC30HW2
Gibson Les Paul Traditonal Plus
Gretsch G6120SSLVO
PRS McCarty
Fender '52 AVRI Telecaster

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