Neil's tube swap episode (sequel to Jackie...)

All about tube choices for the JVM series. See workbench for biasing and tube problems you may have.

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HyFive578
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Neil's tube swap episode (sequel to Jackie...)

Post by HyFive578 » Sat Jan 29, 2011 9:46 pm

Jackie got me all worked up with his tube tests, so I decided to buy me some new variations, if for no other reason than just to prove to myself that I like the current setup I have now... So, I started with current state:

V1: JJ ECC83
V2: JJ ECC83
V3: TAD 7025s
V4: JJ ECC83
V5: Jan Phillips 5751

I only tested combinations in V1 and V2 and they were:

1) V1 & V2: EH12AX7
2) V1 & V2: Tubestore Preferred Series 7025
3) V1: EH12AX7, V2: Preferred Series 7025
4) V1: Preferred Series 7025, V2: EH12AX7
5) V1: Preferred Series, V2 Shuguang 12AX7
6) V1: EH 12AX7, V2: Shuguang 12AX7

1) A little less defined and less bite than I was looking for.. Also a little bassy for my taste.. crunch Red got very muddy with this combination.
2) Nice detail, good clear gain.. a little too bright,
3) Still a little muddy, not a lot of difference from #1
4) Ahhhhhhh....this was the one!!! Crisp, clear gain tones with good dynamics, just enough sparkle, but enough bass response for chugging and palm muting...
5) close second to #4...
6) very similar to #3 but not as smooth...

So, in the end... I've now settled on:

V1: Preferred Series 7025
V2: EH 12AX7
V3: TAD 7025s
V4: JJ ECC83
V5: Jan Phillips 5751

I also put this same combo in my JVM215C and it sounds great there too.. I was really surprised because I thought the JJ's sounded pretty good and I had tried the Preferreds in V1 before, but wasn't feelin it with the JJ in V2.. But with the preferred in V1 and EH in V2... wow.. JJ's going into the spare box...
Guitars: Gibson Les Paul R9 (Main guitar), and many more!!....
Amps: Marshall JVM410H(-fb,plexi cap, R72 compression mods), Marshall JCM800 2210, Blackstar HT Stage 60, EVH5150iii 50W
Cabs: Marshall 1960A(G12M-65 Creambacks), Marshall 1960B(Vintage 30's), Marshall 1936(G12M-65 Creambacks), Marshall 1936(Scumback BlackBack BM75's), Marshall 1936(Scumback M75's), Marshall 1936(G12-65's)
Pedals: Wampler Plextortion, Wampler Pinnacle, Suhr Riot Distortion, Fulltone OCD, TCE Corona Chorus, MXR EVH Phase 90, Dunlop CAE Wah, MXR Carbon Copy Delay, MXR/CAE Boost, MXR 10-Band EQ, TCE Flashback Delay, Sonic Research Tuner

Jackie
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Re: Neil's tube swap episode (sequel to Jackie...)

Post by Jackie » Sat Jan 29, 2011 11:47 pm

Nice. Funny you said that the EHs sound muddy in V1, especially with a Shuguang in V2 and considering the fact that you also have a chinese tube in V3... that's how I have mine set up and I noticed a slight decrease in clarity but a lot more low mid growl when I replaced the Shug with an EH. Maybe it's the fact that I also have an EH in the PI??? Well, it's still your amp and your ears. Preamp tube experiments are fun [smilie=icon_mrgreen.gif]
Tonemeister wrote:there is sooo much that the JVM can be...
GUITARS:
Modded Epiphone Goth Explorer w/BKP Nailbombs; Jackson KVMG Pro; Yamaha SG2000; Gibson SG '61 Reissue; Squier Classic Vibe Tele; Yamaha LLX6A
AMPS&CABS:
Marshall JVM410H (EH V1/V5; Chinese 12AX7B V2-V4; -ve fdbk mod, choke mod, plexi cap mod)
ENGL Savage 120 mk I; Marshall 1960A cab w/V30; Yamaha THR10v2
FX:
BOSS GT-6, Keeley-modded Dunlop Crybaby Wah
MISC:
Proel Esoteric cables, Ernie Ball strings; Dunlop Ultex Sharp picks, craft beer

HyFive578
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Re: Neil's tube swap episode (sequel to Jackie...)

Post by HyFive578 » Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:27 am

Jackie wrote:Nice. Funny you said that the EHs sound muddy in V1, especially with a Shuguang in V2 and considering the fact that you also have a chinese tube in V3... that's how I have mine set up and I noticed a slight decrease in clarity but a lot more low mid growl when I replaced the Shug with an EH. Maybe it's the fact that I also have an EH in the PI??? Well, it's still your amp and your ears. Preamp tube experiments are fun [smilie=icon_mrgreen.gif]
I think "growl" might be a better description than muddy.. but it was the clarity that was lacking for me with the EH in V1... but I do like it in V2...
Guitars: Gibson Les Paul R9 (Main guitar), and many more!!....
Amps: Marshall JVM410H(-fb,plexi cap, R72 compression mods), Marshall JCM800 2210, Blackstar HT Stage 60, EVH5150iii 50W
Cabs: Marshall 1960A(G12M-65 Creambacks), Marshall 1960B(Vintage 30's), Marshall 1936(G12M-65 Creambacks), Marshall 1936(Scumback BlackBack BM75's), Marshall 1936(Scumback M75's), Marshall 1936(G12-65's)
Pedals: Wampler Plextortion, Wampler Pinnacle, Suhr Riot Distortion, Fulltone OCD, TCE Corona Chorus, MXR EVH Phase 90, Dunlop CAE Wah, MXR Carbon Copy Delay, MXR/CAE Boost, MXR 10-Band EQ, TCE Flashback Delay, Sonic Research Tuner

NoWayBackRock
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Re: Neil's tube swap episode (sequel to Jackie...)

Post by NoWayBackRock » Mon Jan 31, 2011 5:23 pm

Hello,

Regarding the choice for tubes other that Russian ones in V3, Jackie mentioned his technician recommended to avoid Russian tubes in cathode follower applications due to voltage handling and plate design issues; if that is the case, maybe we should consider different tubes in V5 also, as the phase inverter most likely implies a cathode follower topology. I submitted the question to New Sensor, maker of EH, TS and Svetlana tubes and will let you know once they answer (in case they do).
Last week I've got Svetlana's in all V1 to V5 to positions, except V4 (reverb mix) where I kept the original white labeled Marshall, and I am very pleased with the results; but I need a rock-solid JVM for giging, so I cannot compromise reliability at all.

Very best,
Marcelo
http://www.wyblack.com
Guitars: ESP Eclipse II (now with Seymour Duncan JB/Jazz, originally EMG 81/60), Schecter C1 Classic (SD JB/Jazz), Schecter C1 Blackjack with SD Blackouts.
Amps: Marshall JVM 410H (EH in V1 and V2, bias 63mv), Mesa Boogie Mark V (stock), 2010 Mesa Dual Rectifier ("reborn", stock).
Cabs: Marshall 1960 BV (V30s) / Custom, super stiff 2x12 with Mesa V30s.
Effects: TC Electronics G Sharp - BB Preamp - Fulltone Wah - Maxon OD808 - Line 6 Pod HD500 (in the loop, noise control and delay).

Jackie
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Re: Neil's tube swap episode (sequel to Jackie...)

Post by Jackie » Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:59 pm

Marcelo, I forgot to mention in my thread that the second I embarked on the tube swap journey, once I got to swapping the PI, I thought of the same thing and I immediately called the tech to check if "not a good idea to put in V3" also means "not a good idea to put it V5". He assured me that I can put it there without the fear of it failing fast. [smilie=gt-happyup.gif]
Tonemeister wrote:there is sooo much that the JVM can be...
GUITARS:
Modded Epiphone Goth Explorer w/BKP Nailbombs; Jackson KVMG Pro; Yamaha SG2000; Gibson SG '61 Reissue; Squier Classic Vibe Tele; Yamaha LLX6A
AMPS&CABS:
Marshall JVM410H (EH V1/V5; Chinese 12AX7B V2-V4; -ve fdbk mod, choke mod, plexi cap mod)
ENGL Savage 120 mk I; Marshall 1960A cab w/V30; Yamaha THR10v2
FX:
BOSS GT-6, Keeley-modded Dunlop Crybaby Wah
MISC:
Proel Esoteric cables, Ernie Ball strings; Dunlop Ultex Sharp picks, craft beer

NoWayBackRock
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Re: Neil's tube swap episode (sequel to Jackie...)

Post by NoWayBackRock » Tue Feb 01, 2011 2:49 am

He assured me that I can put it there without the fear of it failing fast.
This can be true, however if the restriction applies to all cathode follower circuits, take into account that both most common PI topologies include this type of circuit as you can see in the attached schematics. Anyway, if you installed an EH in V5 and the EH tube is of the same family as the Svetlana (please see my other post in this forum area), it is not of the spiral filament type so you should be ok.

Best,
Marcelo
Attachments
cathode_followers.gif
cathode_followers.gif (8.9 KiB) Viewed 4881 times
Last edited by NoWayBackRock on Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
http://www.wyblack.com
Guitars: ESP Eclipse II (now with Seymour Duncan JB/Jazz, originally EMG 81/60), Schecter C1 Classic (SD JB/Jazz), Schecter C1 Blackjack with SD Blackouts.
Amps: Marshall JVM 410H (EH in V1 and V2, bias 63mv), Mesa Boogie Mark V (stock), 2010 Mesa Dual Rectifier ("reborn", stock).
Cabs: Marshall 1960 BV (V30s) / Custom, super stiff 2x12 with Mesa V30s.
Effects: TC Electronics G Sharp - BB Preamp - Fulltone Wah - Maxon OD808 - Line 6 Pod HD500 (in the loop, noise control and delay).

tothemax
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Re: Neil's tube swap episode (sequel to Jackie...)

Post by tothemax » Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:13 am

i put eh12ax7 in all positions, i think they sound great. tubestore told me they hadnt any complaints about the eh as a cathode or pi tube.
no issues here so far.
amps. EVH 100 watt, rocktron chameleon,fender stage head, marshall mg15r, hiwatt fane loaded 4x12 cab, 2x12 pv cab
guitars. 2011 gibson le paul standard, 2009 crafter elec acoustic.
fx delay/pitchshifter.
sansamp tri ac pedal,
dean markley10s
jim dunlop 60mm picks. spectrflex cables

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Re: Neil's tube swap episode (sequel to Jackie...)

Post by Bam Bam » Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:40 pm

I'm with NoWayBackRock as far as needing a rock-solid amp for gigging. When I replace V3 and especially V5, I'm going to use the toughest tubes I can get my hands on. Playing with two bands is stressful enough without having to cross my fingers through every gig, hoping my amp doesn't shit the bed right in the middle of a song! [smilie=icon_eek.gif]

BTW- what are those "world's toughest tubes" that I need, anyway? [smilie=icon_confused.gif]

Bam
Guitars: 2012 Ibanez 25th Anniversary RG3 w/Dimarzio D-Activator/Air Norton S, 2005 Charvel USA Custom Shop Pointy Head Reissue w/80's Jackson J-95/Duncan '59, 2010 Charvel Pro Mod San Dimas Style 1-2H w/Custom Custom/Jazz (was JB/'59 stock), 1987 Kramer Aerostar ZX30 w/Dimarzio Super Distortion/EMG Selects (passive single-coils)
Amps: JVM 410H (2007), EVH 5150III 50w head (2011), Peavey Series 2600 Mark III
Cabs: Avatar Contemporary 4x12 loaded with Hellatone 60s (Vintage 30s), Early 80's Peavey 2x12 loaded with Eminence Governors
Pedals: ISP Decimator, Morley Mark Tremonti Wah, Fulltone OCD (4th gen), Digitech Whammy (5th gen), MXR 10-Band EQ, Boss DD-3 Delay, Boss BF-3 Flanger, Korg Pitch Black Tuner, others

HyFive578
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Re: Neil's tube swap episode (sequel to Jackie...)

Post by HyFive578 » Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:55 pm

I would recommend a TAD 7025 in V3 and Jan Phillips 5751 in V5...
Guitars: Gibson Les Paul R9 (Main guitar), and many more!!....
Amps: Marshall JVM410H(-fb,plexi cap, R72 compression mods), Marshall JCM800 2210, Blackstar HT Stage 60, EVH5150iii 50W
Cabs: Marshall 1960A(G12M-65 Creambacks), Marshall 1960B(Vintage 30's), Marshall 1936(G12M-65 Creambacks), Marshall 1936(Scumback BlackBack BM75's), Marshall 1936(Scumback M75's), Marshall 1936(G12-65's)
Pedals: Wampler Plextortion, Wampler Pinnacle, Suhr Riot Distortion, Fulltone OCD, TCE Corona Chorus, MXR EVH Phase 90, Dunlop CAE Wah, MXR Carbon Copy Delay, MXR/CAE Boost, MXR 10-Band EQ, TCE Flashback Delay, Sonic Research Tuner

Bam Bam
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Re: Neil's tube swap episode (sequel to Jackie...)

Post by Bam Bam » Tue Feb 01, 2011 5:03 pm

HyFive578 wrote:I would recommend a TAD 7025 in V3 and Jan Phillips 5751 in V5...
I see that's what you're currently using. Did you choose them mainly for reliability reasons?

Bam
Guitars: 2012 Ibanez 25th Anniversary RG3 w/Dimarzio D-Activator/Air Norton S, 2005 Charvel USA Custom Shop Pointy Head Reissue w/80's Jackson J-95/Duncan '59, 2010 Charvel Pro Mod San Dimas Style 1-2H w/Custom Custom/Jazz (was JB/'59 stock), 1987 Kramer Aerostar ZX30 w/Dimarzio Super Distortion/EMG Selects (passive single-coils)
Amps: JVM 410H (2007), EVH 5150III 50w head (2011), Peavey Series 2600 Mark III
Cabs: Avatar Contemporary 4x12 loaded with Hellatone 60s (Vintage 30s), Early 80's Peavey 2x12 loaded with Eminence Governors
Pedals: ISP Decimator, Morley Mark Tremonti Wah, Fulltone OCD (4th gen), Digitech Whammy (5th gen), MXR 10-Band EQ, Boss DD-3 Delay, Boss BF-3 Flanger, Korg Pitch Black Tuner, others

NoWayBackRock
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Re: Neil's tube swap episode (sequel to Jackie...)

Post by NoWayBackRock » Tue Feb 01, 2011 6:04 pm

Here is important information I´ve got from New Sensor in reply to my latest inquiry:
"The Electro-Harmonix 12AX7EH has a spiral filament and should not be used in cathode follower circuits. The Tung-Sol 12AX7, Mullard 12AX7, and Sovtek 12AX7LPS also have spiral filaments."

That would explain reported failures in V3.
what are those "world's toughest tubes" that I need, anyway?
The guy from New Sensor recommends Sovtek 12AX7 WA and WB:
"The most rugged 12AX7 types for cathode follower service are the Sovtek 12AX7WA and WB."

I will give the Svetlana a chance and eventually report its failure, incremental noise or any other symptom.

Very best,
Marcelo
http://www.wyblack.com
Guitars: ESP Eclipse II (now with Seymour Duncan JB/Jazz, originally EMG 81/60), Schecter C1 Classic (SD JB/Jazz), Schecter C1 Blackjack with SD Blackouts.
Amps: Marshall JVM 410H (EH in V1 and V2, bias 63mv), Mesa Boogie Mark V (stock), 2010 Mesa Dual Rectifier ("reborn", stock).
Cabs: Marshall 1960 BV (V30s) / Custom, super stiff 2x12 with Mesa V30s.
Effects: TC Electronics G Sharp - BB Preamp - Fulltone Wah - Maxon OD808 - Line 6 Pod HD500 (in the loop, noise control and delay).

HyFive578
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Re: Neil's tube swap episode (sequel to Jackie...)

Post by HyFive578 » Fri Feb 04, 2011 7:37 pm

Bam Bam wrote:
HyFive578 wrote:I would recommend a TAD 7025 in V3 and Jan Phillips 5751 in V5...
I see that's what you're currently using. Did you choose them mainly for reliability reasons?

Bam
I chose the TAD 7025 for V3 both reliability and tone. Hard to describe, just made the amp a bit more open and responsive.. As far as the 5751 in V5, it smoothes things out a lot.. This amp has tons of gain on tap and can get harsh and fizzy at times.. I found the 5751 to take the shrill edges off...

And since I continued my experiments, I will share more findings..

1) Marcelo got me curious... so in V2, I tried replacing the EH-12AX7 that I just bought with a Svetlana .. that was a non-starter... I found it to be thin and undefined.... Marcelo, I hope you have a different experience or perhaps its the combo of the Svetlana with the others.. but I did not like that at all...

2) In V5, I tried replacing the 5751 with a Sovtek LPS (doug's tubes likes these for V5)... all I can say is NO THANKS.. The amp got more gritty and aggressive.. I think if you're really a metal guy/gal, this would be a good choice, but for a classic/hard rock guy like me...no good... I think Doug likes this for Mesas mostly. So back in went the 5751.

3) Ok, now for the BIG surprise.. V4... this was curiosity more than anything because I completely expected nothing to be different.. after all, its just the loop and reverb, how much effect could it have... right?... WRONG!!! I tried the Svetlana again in V4 and the Clean channel went from this nice vibrant sparkle to being a bit dull.. and kicking in my effects like delay lost a bit of the depth... similar experience with the Sovtek.. didn't try the EH. Keep in mind that I have the loop on at all times on all channels as I run my 10-band and G-string through there... With the JJ ECC83 in V4, when I kick on my MXR carbon copy, it sounds like I'm playing in a stadium... simply awesome...

So here's the secret sauce:

V1: Tubestore Preferred Series 7025
V2: EH 12AX7
V3: TAD 7025s
V4: JJ ECC83
V5: Jan Phillips 5751

I liked this combination so much, I replaced all of the preamps in my JCM800 (previously had all JJ's) with this exact same "cocktail"... I put my OCD in front of the overdrive channel with the gain on 2:00 and the tone was so luscious I wanted to cry... [smilie=banana_smiley.gif]

So, I think I'm done... (for now... of course)... :yikes:

P.S. I have a stack of like-new JJ ECC83's sitting around now if anyone wants to buy some... they probably only have a few hours on them...
Guitars: Gibson Les Paul R9 (Main guitar), and many more!!....
Amps: Marshall JVM410H(-fb,plexi cap, R72 compression mods), Marshall JCM800 2210, Blackstar HT Stage 60, EVH5150iii 50W
Cabs: Marshall 1960A(G12M-65 Creambacks), Marshall 1960B(Vintage 30's), Marshall 1936(G12M-65 Creambacks), Marshall 1936(Scumback BlackBack BM75's), Marshall 1936(Scumback M75's), Marshall 1936(G12-65's)
Pedals: Wampler Plextortion, Wampler Pinnacle, Suhr Riot Distortion, Fulltone OCD, TCE Corona Chorus, MXR EVH Phase 90, Dunlop CAE Wah, MXR Carbon Copy Delay, MXR/CAE Boost, MXR 10-Band EQ, TCE Flashback Delay, Sonic Research Tuner

Jackie
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Re: Neil's tube swap episode (sequel to Jackie...)

Post by Jackie » Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:57 pm

Well, I guess I'm one lucky bastard having a JJ in V4, so I don't have to f*k around with tubes anymore [smilie=icon_lol.gif]
Tonemeister wrote:there is sooo much that the JVM can be...
GUITARS:
Modded Epiphone Goth Explorer w/BKP Nailbombs; Jackson KVMG Pro; Yamaha SG2000; Gibson SG '61 Reissue; Squier Classic Vibe Tele; Yamaha LLX6A
AMPS&CABS:
Marshall JVM410H (EH V1/V5; Chinese 12AX7B V2-V4; -ve fdbk mod, choke mod, plexi cap mod)
ENGL Savage 120 mk I; Marshall 1960A cab w/V30; Yamaha THR10v2
FX:
BOSS GT-6, Keeley-modded Dunlop Crybaby Wah
MISC:
Proel Esoteric cables, Ernie Ball strings; Dunlop Ultex Sharp picks, craft beer

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