ISP Decimator G-String Pedal not ideal solution !

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RedEric
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Re: ISP Decimator G-String Pedal not ideal solution !

Post by RedEric » Mon Sep 01, 2014 7:30 am

Don't put the noisegate in the parallel loop ! It doesn't make any sense! I don't know why so many people here are recommending that! The parallel loop 100% wet isn't really 100%.

Try this:

Remove all effect pedal stuff from all loops !
Take a tuner (like the Pitchblack of KORG) and connect it to the serial loop.
Activate the loop by pushing the button. Your signal is now running through the tuner pedal's (true) bypass.
Turn up the channel volume and gain or whatever sound settings you like.
Switch the tuner on. Now, if everything is ok with your serial loop, you can't hear anything when you're playing.
Not even faintly. That's because it's a real serial loop !

Now repeat the same procedure with the parallel loop 100% wet. You still will be hearing some weak signal coming out.
That's because the parallel loop 100% wet is not real serial. It's maybe 95% or something like that. That's normal.

So the noise gate put into that loop won't be able to its job at 100%!

In fact the Decimator G-String pedal was made for the serial loop. Since then it would be able to gate the signal
in the loop AND in the front amp input. It will kill the hiss, that's occuring at the send jack of the serial loop behind the
preamp section AND the noise that comes from the guitar's pickups.

It worked, I was happy, but when I switched to the higain channels it began to overdrive or distort, producing terrible
squealing noise when hitting the strings.

So I thought the G-String pedal was not made for the high level output (LINE LEVEL) of the serial loop. I'm still wondering why noone here has already reported similar experiences!

I have to tell, I also had the single channel decimator pedal. I haven't experienced that kind of problems with it.
So I'm a little bit confused right now. Maybe I have had a faulty device back then, like I was told in that forum before.
But I still can't fully believe that.

Recently someone has told me for high gain purposes, the pedals aren't a 100% solution anyway !
You can't have everything with the pedals. The only way is to go for more expensive rack stuff or even
(a lot more expensive!) studio stuff. e.g. for rack solutiuons the Decimator Pro Rack or if MIDI is required the Hush Ultra of Rocktron. And for studio stuff maybe the LEXICON devices.
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Re: ISP Decimator G-String Pedal not ideal solution !

Post by atarilovesyou » Mon Sep 01, 2014 10:16 pm

The above post is full of truths that I've read elsewhere, but in a way that gives it a real-world authenticity. Kudos!

I've experimented enough with the loop now to know that it just isn't for me. I don't believe the 'high gain' of the JVM is too much for a pedal like the Decimator, even though if you want to use a noise gate in pedal form, it has to go in the serial loop to work with the kind of results you'd expect. My JSX Ultra channel has just as much gain as anything on the JVM and the Decimator handled it no problem. The problems lie with the loop design, and now you know the limitations of such a design.

Have you tried two noise gate pedals yet? One if front and one in the parallel loop at 100%? In that configuration, I get a dead quiet amp. That squealing thing that goes on, I've found, has more to do with where you have your gain levels set, and how close you are physically to your amp. This amp was not designed with bedroom players in mind (I don't think any 100W is), even though you can get very good 'bedroom' level sounds out of it. Just don't get too close to it or that squeal will happen. But that's been written about quite a bit here, and shouldn't surprise anyone.

My last ditch effort was to find a line-level gate to put in the serial loop, but even that won't work for me as it cuts off the delays prematurely...because the serial loop comes after the parallel/series loop. A mod that would 'fix' this issue for me would be to somehow make the serial loop switchable to instrument level so I can plug in all my devices into that loop. I haven't read the mods section for this, but if someone knows, please let me know. I know that Marshall can't accommodate everybody, and I think the JS is going to be my next amp as it addresses all the issues I"ve been having. But you still can't have it 'all', as the JVM clean is better and I actually like the reverbs. And my fave channel is OD1 Orange.

I've been using my 410H mainly without effects, and for that it does sound great. But I have a lot of effects, and that's what keeps things interesting for me. Perhaps you'd do well to take a look at the JS as well, depending on your gain needs. The fact that the 410H does what it does is remarkable, and maybe if I were in a different situation and didn't need effects (and wanted to buy more expensive line level noise gates), I wouldn't sell it but it's all about finding what best fits your needs.

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Re: ISP Decimator G-String Pedal not ideal solution !

Post by Tonemeister » Tue Sep 02, 2014 3:20 pm

RedEric wrote:...the parallel loop 100% wet is not real serial. It's maybe 95% or something like that. That's normal.

So the noise gate put into that loop won't be able to its job at 100%!...
that's exactly true... but I find that gating 95% of the noise is sufficient. Have you ever been able to try out a different JVM (in a store maybe)? I wonder if there isn't another issue you dealing with here. I did perform the gain-reduction mod but I am using my OD set to the equivalent of a stock Orange between noon and two (depending on my mood) and I am just not experiencing the issues you are describing (or at least, I do not perceive what I am hearing as problematic)
- Marshall JVM410H: Negative Feedback Mod (33k-500k, linear), Compression Mod, One-Wire Cascade Mod, OD2-to-OD1 Mod, P.I. Boost Mod (with 33k in R52), Plexi Cap Mod (1uF), Modified C83 Mod (1- OFF, 2- 0.68uF, 3- 1.0uF, 4- 1.5uF, 5- 2.2uF, 6- 3.2uF), Gain Reduction Mod, Blackface Mod, Mesa Rectifier Mod, 50W (two tubes: 37.5mV), LED Footswitch Mod
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Re: ISP Decimator G-String Pedal not ideal solution !

Post by Dark Horse » Wed Sep 03, 2014 12:50 am

jimsreynolds wrote:
Dark Horse wrote:
atarilovesyou wrote:Ah, loops and the 410H...my fave topic as of late!

I would think twice before putting the Decimator G-String in the serial loop. From an recent email I received from ISP (and it's in their FAQ section), the Decimator was not designed to be used at instrument level, which the serial loop is. While they didn't outright say it would cause damage, they said it would cause problems in the long run on the electronics. I usually just stick stuff in the loops and hope for the best but in this case I decided not to....they may have changed the input levels for the G system, however, I'm only going by the original pedal here.
Serial Loop is LINE level, not Instrument level (i.e. line level is higher than instrument level). Serial/Parallel loop can be switched to either Line (+10dB) or Instrument (-4dB) level to match either pedals or rack-type effects.

DH
Yep ... most of what DH said though I think he is having a 'senior moment' with the levels:

'Line' level = +4dBu
'Instrument' level is -10 dBV

Basically, If the worry is overloading the Decimator then it should go in the Parallel loop (100% Mix) at -10dB.
Oops, got the numbers backwards, but at least got the overall idea of Line level being much higher than Instrument level conveyed. I always seem to struggle to remember - "Let's see now, was it +4 and -10, or +10 and -4?" In any case, the "+" goes with Line, and the "-" goes with Instrument level, regardless of the numbers you pair with them.
These senior moments you speak of - seem to be coming more often.
And while we're at it, you kids get off my lawn!

DH
JVM 410H w/Mods: 1µF Plexi Cap, 3H Mojotone Choke, Neg. Feedback Adj. Pot.(500K)

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Re: ISP Decimator G-String Pedal not ideal solution !

Post by Dark Horse » Wed Sep 03, 2014 1:11 am

RedEric wrote:Don't put the noisegate in the parallel loop ! It doesn't make any sense! I don't know why so many people here are recommending that
Because it works just fine for most of us.

I'm really not sure why you're having so much trouble with yours. I'm not familiar with the specific details of the G-String, but are you certain that it is designed to work at the levels of the Serial loop (i.e. Line level)? If it isn't, then that would explain why you have the feedback problems with the high gain channels. The reason no one has reported similar problems is because I don't think anyone else is really using it in the Serial loop. Most are using the Parallel loop @ 100% wet, and not having the problems you are. Although I don't use a G-String, I do have a G-Major multi-effect rack unit in my parallel loop, and I do use the onboard Noise Gate that it offers. It makes my amp very quiet, even on the OD channels. The G Major is designed to work at either level (switchable), in either loop, but it works best in the parallel loop, with the loop and the unit both set to Instrument level (TC calls it "Consumer" level).

So I guess the reason that it doesn't make sense to you why so many people are recommending that, is that they aren't experiencing the problems that you are, for whatever reason.

DH
JVM 410H w/Mods: 1µF Plexi Cap, 3H Mojotone Choke, Neg. Feedback Adj. Pot.(500K)

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Re: ISP Decimator G-String Pedal not ideal solution !

Post by atarilovesyou » Sat Sep 06, 2014 11:37 pm

If I didn't have any other FX loop to compare it to, and I wasn't using it for the high gain applications that I am, then I'd probably be perfectly happy with the 100% parallel loop for my noise gates. It's not like it's hissing like a garden snake...but when a gate is working as it should, and it's in a serial loop, it's dead silent when it needs to be. That's probably why there's not many complaints, just like you said.

If the 100% parallel loop worked the way it truly should have, then all would be perfect in my Marshall World :D For curiosity sake, I often wonder why Santiago designed it that way, but ya can't change the past...it's a dead horse topic for many here. It doesn't make the 410H a bad amp by any means.

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Re: ISP Decimator G-String Pedal not ideal solution !

Post by Paddy1664 » Fri Mar 25, 2016 5:00 pm

The g string is not designed for use in the serial loop!

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Re: ISP Decimator G-String Pedal not ideal solution !

Post by Green Manalishi » Mon Aug 15, 2016 8:25 pm

When I had a G string I had no problems with it working in the parallel loop set at 100%, nowadays I use a regular decimator up front, and the only channel I get noise from is OD 2 orange or red, but at a low acceptable level.
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Re: ISP Decimator G-String Pedal not ideal solution !

Post by Hivemind » Fri Oct 07, 2016 9:28 am

I recently acquired my JVM410 and have been fighting the same issues with the Decimator G String, where the parallel loop suffers from dry signal (read: noise) leakage, and the serial loop hits the Decimator too hard.

I have considered a mod, which would kill the dry signal prior to hitting the summing stage, effectively making the loop 100% serial. An even more involved mod would involve reconfiguring the DPDT relay switch to make the wet signal the default, with the dry completely removed from the path unless the loop switch is on.

Until then, my workaround has been this: Guitar => ISP Guit In, ISP Guit Out => Amp In, Parralel loop send (-10dB) => ISP Dec In, ISP Dec Out => POWER AMP IN. Notice I am sending from the parallel loop and returning to the serial loop. This bypasses the parallel loop recovery stage, the entire reverb section, and the serial loop buffer. The volume of the amp is drastically reduced (due to -10dB signal being fed directly to the power amp), but with the MV on full (the way I like it) and Channel Vol up around noon, it's still pretty healthy, and still probably louder than most club soundguys care for.

Dead silent between notes, which may not be important to all, but it certainly is to me. Pedal effects work great at that loop level, too, which was kind of the point.
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Re: ISP Decimator G-String Pedal not ideal solution !

Post by ALrock » Tue Dec 20, 2016 8:12 pm

I know this is a slightly older post, but I cant wrap my head around it.
My G string II works perfectly! loop, 100% wet -10 etc..
and I can not stress PERFECTLY enough...

I just feel compelled to write this, for someone who may look this up in the future etc..
JVM 410H...No mods..none needed, perfect like it is :)
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Re: ISP Decimator G-String Pedal not ideal solution !

Post by gtrjunior » Tue Dec 20, 2016 10:18 pm

Always worked for me also perfectly in the parallel loop 100% wet.

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Re: ISP Decimator G-String Pedal not ideal solution !

Post by Green Manalishi » Wed Aug 30, 2017 6:28 pm

Alrock, most people don't have problems using it like you do, in the parallel loop set 100% like it should be.
I am one of those that it all worked as it should
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Re: ISP Decimator G-String Pedal not ideal solution !

Post by ALrock » Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:42 am

Green Manalishi wrote:
Wed Aug 30, 2017 6:28 pm
Alrock, most people don't have problems using it like you do, in the parallel loop set 100% like it should be.
I am one of those that it all worked as it should
Right on!

mine is still working perfectly!
JVM 410H...No mods..none needed, perfect like it is :)
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ISP G STRING NOISE GATE
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Re: ISP Decimator G-String Pedal not ideal solution !

Post by jimsreynolds » Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:12 am

Most people seem to have an Ok experience with the Decimator in the Parallel loop, mix 100% and -10dB. I am gonna cough and say what I always do which is 'check for ground loops if there is noise that you cannot clear'.

This came back and bit me with my pedalboard recently which has front of amp and loop pedals. The PSU provided a common ground (yeah, I know, buy an 'isolated' one) which created noise but I nailed the issue for now with ground break cables.

The leakage thing is an old demon which comes back to haunt periodically. For anyone who wants to nail it definitively, JVM designer Santiall recently posted a mod for the parallel loop that converts it to serial so fill your boots. Details here ...viewtopic.php?f=31&t=10495&p=105647#p105647
JimBOB

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