Use additional Noise Gate with JS or Decimator

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RockmanCentral
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Use additional Noise Gate with JS or Decimator

Post by RockmanCentral » Sun Jan 25, 2015 8:39 pm

The Noise Gate on the JS is really, really good, as is the Decimator G-String, from what I hear.
I believe they both work by getting the signal level from the guitar, but then the gate itself is after the gain stages (or in the loop).
What's great about this is that the gate is being triggered by the signal from the guitar, which should be the cleanest signal available.
When there's no more guitar signal, there's no more reason to have the gate open.

But there's still a drawback that I've found, as have others from what I can tell:
If you set the sensitivity too high, it cuts the signal off too soon, so you can lose some sustain.
But if you set it too low, you're left with residual noise from the gain stages because the gate doesn't close all the way.

So, what I've started to do is add an additional gate (in my case, an MXR Smart Gate since I had a couple laying around).
I set up the JS (or your G-String if you are using one of those) to clamp down as late as possible.
So, I set the gate without playing anything and turn up the sensitivity until it just starts to close the gate.
Now, when I play a note and let it sustain, it should start to close the gate when the note is almost gone.
But, there will still be noise left over from the gain stages because the JS's gate hasn't really completely closed.
But it IS taking care of the lions share of the noise, and doing a VERY good job of it too.

Then, I add the Smart Gate, again, while not playing anything, and adjust the sensitivity just until it locks down completely.
At this point, if I'm not playing anything, it's DEAD SILENT!
But if I play a note and let it sustain, it goes on for quite a while until the JS's gate rolls in, and just after that, the Smart Gate kicks in.
The note isn't cut off as quickly by the JS's gate, and the Smart Gate takes care of any residual noise from the amps gain stages.
Staccato rhythms are absolutely silent in between and when I'm not playing, you wouldn't even know it's on.

I think this provides the best of both worlds... a gate that's triggered from the guitar signal but applied after the gain stages.
And an additional gate to get that dead silent effect so quiet passages aren't ruined with leftover hum and noise.
Gear:
Marshall JVM 410HJS - -ve Feedback
Kemper Profiling Rack
Two Notes Torpedo Live
Marshall 1960 HW Stack - G12H-30's
Marshall 1960 Lead Stack - G12T-75's
Rockman Stack with Rev 20 Sustainor
Rockman XP212, XP100a
Echoplex EP3 - Hyperspace Pedal
Gibson Collectors Choice #10 Tom Scholz 68 Les Paul Goldtop
PRS SE 24 Custom Floyd - Sustainiac, DiMarzio Super Distortion, Graph Tech LB63 Floyd Rose, Acoustiphonic preamp
Jackson Dinky Reverse - Sustainiac, DiMarzio Super Distortion
Epiphone 68 Reissue Les Paul Goldtop

Boston Covers:
http://www.youtube.com/user/RockmanCentralBob

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Re: Use additional Noise Gate with JS or Decimator

Post by Spacerocker » Mon Feb 02, 2015 5:27 pm

Yes - that's pretty much what I do with the Decimator, and the noise-gates in my G-Major in the loop!

The gates in the G-major aren't really fast enough to stop the guitar squealling on loud, high-gain settings, but the Decimator just before the amp input does that! The gates in the G-major are set to a much lower threshold, so when the decimator gate closes, the G-major gates also close, which being after the pre-amp (as you say) results in total silence! Magic!
Amps: Marshall JVM410: Hotter Bias, Plexi mod, 10H choke, Stiffness Mod, Neg Feedback Mod (Variable) spec, 3rd Stage Bias mod, AFD type mod (increased Crunch gain), 50W conversion, Tone stack Mods to 2203 spec, "Anti-Compression" mod, dBx 31 band graphic in loop, Marshall AVT20 Valvestate practice amp, Marshall 1980 2203, 2 x 1936 Cabs, 1968 Orignal 4 x 12 Cab with Greenbacks
Guitars: Les Paul Traditional, Fender HM Strat x 2 with Dimarzio Evolution Humbucker, Fender Standard Strat
Effects: Morley Wah/Volume Pedal. Behringer Vintage Phaser, TC G-Major, Alesis Midiverb. Behringer FCB1010 Midi Foot Controller

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Re: Use additional Noise Gate with JS or Decimator

Post by RockmanCentral » Mon Feb 02, 2015 7:14 pm

I'm glad you chimed in, SpaceRocker!

The difference when using the additional gate is pretty dramatic.
Without it, you either deal with notes getting cut off too soon, or a lot of leftover noise.

I may do a recording of how it sounds when setting it up.
I think that might demonstrate just how much of a difference it makes!
Gear:
Marshall JVM 410HJS - -ve Feedback
Kemper Profiling Rack
Two Notes Torpedo Live
Marshall 1960 HW Stack - G12H-30's
Marshall 1960 Lead Stack - G12T-75's
Rockman Stack with Rev 20 Sustainor
Rockman XP212, XP100a
Echoplex EP3 - Hyperspace Pedal
Gibson Collectors Choice #10 Tom Scholz 68 Les Paul Goldtop
PRS SE 24 Custom Floyd - Sustainiac, DiMarzio Super Distortion, Graph Tech LB63 Floyd Rose, Acoustiphonic preamp
Jackson Dinky Reverse - Sustainiac, DiMarzio Super Distortion
Epiphone 68 Reissue Les Paul Goldtop

Boston Covers:
http://www.youtube.com/user/RockmanCentralBob

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Re: Use additional Noise Gate with JS or Decimator

Post by Tonemeister » Tue Feb 03, 2015 5:43 pm

RockmanCentral wrote:...I may do a recording of how it sounds when setting it up.
I think that might demonstrate just how much of a difference it makes!
please do... I kind of understand what you are explaining but have a hard time imagining the real-life result. In my head I keep on thinking that there is no real reason why two gates would do a better job than one???

A recording with the before and after would be great [smilie=gt-happyup.gif]
- Marshall JVM410H: Negative Feedback Mod (33k-500k, linear), Compression Mod, One-Wire Cascade Mod, OD2-to-OD1 Mod, P.I. Boost Mod (with 33k in R52), Plexi Cap Mod (1uF), Modified C83 Mod (1- OFF, 2- 0.68uF, 3- 1.0uF, 4- 1.5uF, 5- 2.2uF, 6- 3.2uF), Gain Reduction Mod, Blackface Mod, Mesa Rectifier Mod, 50W (two tubes: 37.5mV), LED Footswitch Mod
- Laney AOR ProTube 3012 Combo: stock
- 2x Marshall 1960B 4xG12T-75
- 2x Dean DIME (FBD, Stealth #29/50), ESP LTD MH-250HT, Fender MIM Strat
- TC Electronic PolyTune, ISP Decimator G-String, Morley Mark Tremonti Power Wah, Ibanez TS9, MXR EVH Phase 90, TC Flashback X4, TC Hall Of Fame

link to my old band "Systatic" (Line6 Vetta II days) http://www.systatic.ca

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Re: Use additional Noise Gate with JS or Decimator

Post by RockmanCentral » Tue Feb 03, 2015 6:39 pm

Tonemeister wrote:
RockmanCentral wrote:...I may do a recording of how it sounds when setting it up.
I think that might demonstrate just how much of a difference it makes!
please do... I kind of understand what you are explaining but have a hard time imagining the real-life result. In my head I keep on thinking that there is no real reason why two gates would do a better job than one???

A recording with the before and after would be great [smilie=gt-happyup.gif]
Yeah, it's not intuitively obvious at first glance.

The reason they work better together is because you can set the thresholds differently, and also because of where they are being triggered from and also where the gates are applied in the signal chain. The first one is set with a higher threshold so it doesn't cut the end of your notes off but kills MOST of your noise. The residual noise has a MUCH lower level so you can set the second gate up with a lower threshold, which also causes it to clamp down harder resulting in total silence (since most of the noise in your system has been created by this point). In practice, the second gate ONLY gets triggered AFTER the first gate has done its thing, and it closes almost simultaneously with the first gate.

Another nice thing about it is that since the first gates threshold is set higher, it takes only a few taps on the back of my guitar neck with my hands off the strings to make enough signal to open the first gate back up again. And once the first gate opens, the second gate opens up as well. So doing a fade in or letting the feedback dogs loose is a breeze.

I'll try to record some clips this evening that will demonstrate the different approaches.
Gear:
Marshall JVM 410HJS - -ve Feedback
Kemper Profiling Rack
Two Notes Torpedo Live
Marshall 1960 HW Stack - G12H-30's
Marshall 1960 Lead Stack - G12T-75's
Rockman Stack with Rev 20 Sustainor
Rockman XP212, XP100a
Echoplex EP3 - Hyperspace Pedal
Gibson Collectors Choice #10 Tom Scholz 68 Les Paul Goldtop
PRS SE 24 Custom Floyd - Sustainiac, DiMarzio Super Distortion, Graph Tech LB63 Floyd Rose, Acoustiphonic preamp
Jackson Dinky Reverse - Sustainiac, DiMarzio Super Distortion
Epiphone 68 Reissue Les Paul Goldtop

Boston Covers:
http://www.youtube.com/user/RockmanCentralBob

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Re: Use additional Noise Gate with JS or Decimator

Post by Spacerocker » Tue Feb 03, 2015 7:34 pm

RockmanCentral wrote: The reason they work better together is because you can set the thresholds differently, and also because of where they are being triggered from and also where the gates are applied in the signal chain. The first one is set with a higher threshold so it doesn't cut the end of your notes off but kills MOST of your noise. The residual noise has a MUCH lower level so you can set the second gate up with a lower threshold, which also causes it to clamp down harder resulting in total silence (since most of the noise in your system has been created by this point). In practice, the second gate ONLY gets triggered AFTER the first gate has done its thing, and it closes almost simultaneously with the first gate.

Yes, that's exactly right! You don't need two gates, but doing it this way gets rid of any residual hum/hiss, etc from the amp, effects loop, etc, and sounds really dramatic! I was demonstrating the power of this set-up (and ISP in particular) to my band mates the other day:

Select OD2 - nothing - total silence
Switch decimator OFF - instant wild, howling squealling feedback!
Switch ISP back on again - silence!
Hit a power-chord, and let it ring out - and total sustain, merging into harmonic feedback.
Hit a power chord, and immdediately damp it - instant total silence! It's great!

The only slight draw-back is if you use the volume on your guitar to clean-up the sound. obviously you get to a point when the noisegate at the front kicks in (even the decimator can't change the laws of physics!) - but the beauty of it is - you can just switch it off for those moments!

I always think a lack of noise, hiss and hum between songs, makes a band sound more dramatic! out PA is quiet, so when we all stop, it is almost total silence!
Amps: Marshall JVM410: Hotter Bias, Plexi mod, 10H choke, Stiffness Mod, Neg Feedback Mod (Variable) spec, 3rd Stage Bias mod, AFD type mod (increased Crunch gain), 50W conversion, Tone stack Mods to 2203 spec, "Anti-Compression" mod, dBx 31 band graphic in loop, Marshall AVT20 Valvestate practice amp, Marshall 1980 2203, 2 x 1936 Cabs, 1968 Orignal 4 x 12 Cab with Greenbacks
Guitars: Les Paul Traditional, Fender HM Strat x 2 with Dimarzio Evolution Humbucker, Fender Standard Strat
Effects: Morley Wah/Volume Pedal. Behringer Vintage Phaser, TC G-Major, Alesis Midiverb. Behringer FCB1010 Midi Foot Controller

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Re: Use additional Noise Gate with JS or Decimator

Post by RockmanCentral » Wed Feb 04, 2015 1:23 am

OK, here's a few clips...

OD1 Orange doing staccato chords: No Gate, JS Gate Only, JS Gate and Smart Gate.
backgroud_noise_stacatto.mp3
(736.86 KiB) Downloaded 48 times
OD1 Orange (without a compressor) background noise only: No Gate, JS Gate Only, JS Gate and Smart Gate, then in reverse.
background_noise.mp3
(871.55 KiB) Downloaded 39 times
OD1 Orange (WITH a compressor) background noise only: JS Gate and Smart Gate, JS Gate Only, No Gate, then in reverse.
background_noise_highgain.mp3
(802.17 KiB) Downloaded 43 times
Well, I just couldn't help myself.... :yikes:
Hyperspace_Pedal.mp3
(2.85 MiB) Downloaded 55 times
Gear:
Marshall JVM 410HJS - -ve Feedback
Kemper Profiling Rack
Two Notes Torpedo Live
Marshall 1960 HW Stack - G12H-30's
Marshall 1960 Lead Stack - G12T-75's
Rockman Stack with Rev 20 Sustainor
Rockman XP212, XP100a
Echoplex EP3 - Hyperspace Pedal
Gibson Collectors Choice #10 Tom Scholz 68 Les Paul Goldtop
PRS SE 24 Custom Floyd - Sustainiac, DiMarzio Super Distortion, Graph Tech LB63 Floyd Rose, Acoustiphonic preamp
Jackson Dinky Reverse - Sustainiac, DiMarzio Super Distortion
Epiphone 68 Reissue Les Paul Goldtop

Boston Covers:
http://www.youtube.com/user/RockmanCentralBob

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Re: Use additional Noise Gate with JS or Decimator

Post by Tonemeister » Wed Feb 04, 2015 4:30 pm

very, very interesting... thanks for posting.. I loved the last one [smilie=gt-happyup.gif]
- Marshall JVM410H: Negative Feedback Mod (33k-500k, linear), Compression Mod, One-Wire Cascade Mod, OD2-to-OD1 Mod, P.I. Boost Mod (with 33k in R52), Plexi Cap Mod (1uF), Modified C83 Mod (1- OFF, 2- 0.68uF, 3- 1.0uF, 4- 1.5uF, 5- 2.2uF, 6- 3.2uF), Gain Reduction Mod, Blackface Mod, Mesa Rectifier Mod, 50W (two tubes: 37.5mV), LED Footswitch Mod
- Laney AOR ProTube 3012 Combo: stock
- 2x Marshall 1960B 4xG12T-75
- 2x Dean DIME (FBD, Stealth #29/50), ESP LTD MH-250HT, Fender MIM Strat
- TC Electronic PolyTune, ISP Decimator G-String, Morley Mark Tremonti Power Wah, Ibanez TS9, MXR EVH Phase 90, TC Flashback X4, TC Hall Of Fame

link to my old band "Systatic" (Line6 Vetta II days) http://www.systatic.ca

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Re: Use additional Noise Gate with JS or Decimator

Post by RockmanCentral » Wed Feb 04, 2015 4:43 pm

Tonemeister wrote:very, very interesting... thanks for posting.. I loved the last one [smilie=gt-happyup.gif]
Thanks Tonemeister.... after listening to it though, I think it really kinda sucks.

The first take I did of it I used the same OD1 Orange settings from above, and once it was recorded, I couldn't believe the amount of gain I had on there.
So I backed it down to Crunch Orange or Red, but it STILL has too much gain.

It's weird, it sounds great in the room at the time, but once it's recorded, you hear just how much it kinda turns to almost a synth sound.
It just sounds SOOOO processed to me....... I gotta work on that.
Gear:
Marshall JVM 410HJS - -ve Feedback
Kemper Profiling Rack
Two Notes Torpedo Live
Marshall 1960 HW Stack - G12H-30's
Marshall 1960 Lead Stack - G12T-75's
Rockman Stack with Rev 20 Sustainor
Rockman XP212, XP100a
Echoplex EP3 - Hyperspace Pedal
Gibson Collectors Choice #10 Tom Scholz 68 Les Paul Goldtop
PRS SE 24 Custom Floyd - Sustainiac, DiMarzio Super Distortion, Graph Tech LB63 Floyd Rose, Acoustiphonic preamp
Jackson Dinky Reverse - Sustainiac, DiMarzio Super Distortion
Epiphone 68 Reissue Les Paul Goldtop

Boston Covers:
http://www.youtube.com/user/RockmanCentralBob

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Tonemeister
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Re: Use additional Noise Gate with JS or Decimator

Post by Tonemeister » Wed Feb 04, 2015 5:49 pm

RockmanCentral wrote:
Tonemeister wrote:very, very interesting... thanks for posting.. I loved the last one [smilie=gt-happyup.gif]
Thanks Tonemeister.... after listening to it though, I think it really kinda sucks.

The first take I did of it I used the same OD1 Orange settings from above, and once it was recorded, I couldn't believe the amount of gain I had on there.
So I backed it down to Crunch Orange or Red, but it STILL has too much gain.

It's weird, it sounds great in the room at the time, but once it's recorded, you hear just how much it kinda turns to almost a synth sound.
It just sounds SOOOO processed to me....... I gotta work on that.
doesn't really matter if it sounds processed or not IMO... your recordings demonstrate the point of the two noise gates very well and that was the point after all. [smilie=gt-happyup.gif]
- Marshall JVM410H: Negative Feedback Mod (33k-500k, linear), Compression Mod, One-Wire Cascade Mod, OD2-to-OD1 Mod, P.I. Boost Mod (with 33k in R52), Plexi Cap Mod (1uF), Modified C83 Mod (1- OFF, 2- 0.68uF, 3- 1.0uF, 4- 1.5uF, 5- 2.2uF, 6- 3.2uF), Gain Reduction Mod, Blackface Mod, Mesa Rectifier Mod, 50W (two tubes: 37.5mV), LED Footswitch Mod
- Laney AOR ProTube 3012 Combo: stock
- 2x Marshall 1960B 4xG12T-75
- 2x Dean DIME (FBD, Stealth #29/50), ESP LTD MH-250HT, Fender MIM Strat
- TC Electronic PolyTune, ISP Decimator G-String, Morley Mark Tremonti Power Wah, Ibanez TS9, MXR EVH Phase 90, TC Flashback X4, TC Hall Of Fame

link to my old band "Systatic" (Line6 Vetta II days) http://www.systatic.ca

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Re: Use additional Noise Gate with JS or Decimator

Post by atarilovesyou » Thu Feb 05, 2015 4:19 am

When I had my 410H the only way I could really tame the squealies was by placing the Decimator in front of the amp and my Boss NS2 in the loop. Actually, it still did pretty well with just the Decimator up front. My whole thing was I didn't want all my guitar tone going into the gate before hitting the preamp...not sure why, it just didn't sit well with me.

I loooove that last Boston clip!...was it a specific pedal or did you just use an analog delay and fool with the repeat knob? I've got a great Maxon AD999 delay that does that kinda weird stuff all day long :D But this sounded a lot more intense.

If you're copping a Tom Scholz tone, I wouldn't worry too much about sounding over processed :D !!! Sounds great to me, we were just talking about Boston today at work. Boston...Journey...Toto...it was a corporate rock kinda morning.

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Re: Use additional Noise Gate with JS or Decimator

Post by RockmanCentral » Thu Feb 05, 2015 4:53 pm

atarilovesyou wrote:When I had my 410H the only way I could really tame the squealies was by placing the Decimator in front of the amp and my Boss NS2 in the loop. Actually, it still did pretty well with just the Decimator up front. My whole thing was I didn't want all my guitar tone going into the gate before hitting the preamp...not sure why, it just didn't sit well with me.

I loooove that last Boston clip!...was it a specific pedal or did you just use an analog delay and fool with the repeat knob? I've got a great Maxon AD999 delay that does that kinda weird stuff all day long :D But this sounded a lot more intense.

If you're copping a Tom Scholz tone, I wouldn't worry too much about sounding over processed :D !!! Sounds great to me, we were just talking about Boston today at work. Boston...Journey...Toto...it was a corporate rock kinda morning.
Thanks for the kind words!!

That was an old Echoplex that I modified the hell out of to make it into a Hyperspace Pedal like what Tom Scholz uses with Boston. Literally decades of research went into figuring that sucker out! It's close enough that Tom's wife asked me specifically not to reveal much about it.... it's kind of his trademark effect. I've built them using analog delay pedals as well, and in some ways they tend to work a little better (smoother chord bends, etc). But on the flip side, there's some effects that you can only do using an Echoplex. They are a lot of fun once they get warmed up, but a royal PITA to maintain!!!

In case you missed them last year, Boston is planning on touring again this Summer. I've seen them plenty of times over the last couple decades, but I must say that the current lineup REALLY sounds good..... the guitars, the vocals, everything is just sounding VERY spot on to the records. Well worth seeing....
Gear:
Marshall JVM 410HJS - -ve Feedback
Kemper Profiling Rack
Two Notes Torpedo Live
Marshall 1960 HW Stack - G12H-30's
Marshall 1960 Lead Stack - G12T-75's
Rockman Stack with Rev 20 Sustainor
Rockman XP212, XP100a
Echoplex EP3 - Hyperspace Pedal
Gibson Collectors Choice #10 Tom Scholz 68 Les Paul Goldtop
PRS SE 24 Custom Floyd - Sustainiac, DiMarzio Super Distortion, Graph Tech LB63 Floyd Rose, Acoustiphonic preamp
Jackson Dinky Reverse - Sustainiac, DiMarzio Super Distortion
Epiphone 68 Reissue Les Paul Goldtop

Boston Covers:
http://www.youtube.com/user/RockmanCentralBob

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Re: Use additional Noise Gate with JS or Decimator

Post by atarilovesyou » Fri Feb 06, 2015 12:26 am

I'd love to see Boston, though haven't heard the latest record. I wonder if any Vancouver dates are going to come up...

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Re: Use additional Noise Gate with JS or Decimator

Post by RockmanCentral » Fri Feb 06, 2015 2:14 pm

atarilovesyou wrote:I'd love to see Boston, though haven't heard the latest record. I wonder if any Vancouver dates are going to come up...

I posted a couple of the new songs performed live in Nagoya, Japan on the last tour in this thread...

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9116&start=45

Here's a video of the whole show....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0UU4yyKmyI

I know they made it to Washington state last tour... not sure if they made it to Vancouver though.
No dates have been announced yet for the upcoming tour, but if I hear anything I'll let you know...
Gear:
Marshall JVM 410HJS - -ve Feedback
Kemper Profiling Rack
Two Notes Torpedo Live
Marshall 1960 HW Stack - G12H-30's
Marshall 1960 Lead Stack - G12T-75's
Rockman Stack with Rev 20 Sustainor
Rockman XP212, XP100a
Echoplex EP3 - Hyperspace Pedal
Gibson Collectors Choice #10 Tom Scholz 68 Les Paul Goldtop
PRS SE 24 Custom Floyd - Sustainiac, DiMarzio Super Distortion, Graph Tech LB63 Floyd Rose, Acoustiphonic preamp
Jackson Dinky Reverse - Sustainiac, DiMarzio Super Distortion
Epiphone 68 Reissue Les Paul Goldtop

Boston Covers:
http://www.youtube.com/user/RockmanCentralBob

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