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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:24 pm 
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Update 21-Oct-2012: This thread has been partially overhauled, in the light of firmware updates, experience and knowledge. The previous version of this thread has been saved for posterity in the thread linked here --> viewtopic.php?f=9&t=6990

Update 23-Oct-2011: This thread has been completely overhauled, in the light of experience and knowledge. The original version of this thread has been saved for posterity in the thread linked here --> viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5677
________________________________________________________________


This thread describes a setup for the four cable method (4CM) as it applies to the Line 6 HD500 and the JVM. All configurations described are in active use on my JVM410C Combo and HD500 (running Firmware 2.10)

What is 4CM and why might you want to use a 4CM? Well check here for details --> viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5332

I have included a 'Simple Set List' of patches here that people can use as templates or a starting point where needed. These can be imported into you HD500 using the HD 500 Edit software. BACKUP YOUR OWN PATCHES FIRST !!! Note: The patches have been zipped to allow them to be uploaded to the forum. Remember to unzip the patch set list before tying to import them.

Attachment:
JVM HD500 4CM Ready - 20121022.zip [5.32 KiB]
Downloaded 565 times


The patches are named after the JVM Channels but will not do the channel change for you! If you want this, use MIDI. Each patch has effects appropriate for the channel (as per my tastes). On the Clean Red patch,the volume is significantly reduced within the mixer to try and match it in to other channels. Please adjust it to your own tastes.

Be aware that these patches contain MIDI switching information (assigned to pedals FS4, FS8 and Looper) and are designed for use with Switches FS5 - FS8 in footswitch mode rather than patch selection mode.

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Last edited by jimsreynolds on Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:03 am, edited 20 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:32 pm 
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The Quick Guide – 4CM Setup for a JVM and Line 6 HD 500
This is the short version for the impatient! It describes setting up a basic 4CM using the switchable FX loop. It has been developed using version 2.10 of the Line 6 Firmware and reflects the functionality and capabilities of this version.

It includes a setup description for a basic patch using effects only. The patch does not include amp modelling.

1 – Grab the bits you need
- The JVM
- The HD500
- Four standard Guitar cables

2 – Connect up the cables
Attachment:
4cmhd500_0.jpg
4cmhd500_0.jpg [ 21.62 KiB | Viewed 13273 times ]

3 – Set the Knobs and Switches
The following switches and knobs need to be set on the physically set on the JVM and HD500
Attachment:
4cmhd500_1.jpg
4cmhd500_1.jpg [ 41.26 KiB | Viewed 13273 times ]

4 – Set the Channel FX Loop
You can select whichever channel you like but you must have the FX Loop switched on (i.e. the FX Loop light on the front of the JVM must be lit).

5 – Global HD500 change
Within the Global setup, change the ’Output Mode’ to either ‘Combo Pwr Amp’ or ‘Stack Pwr Amp’ depending on which you use.

6 - Set your channel Gain/Treble/Mid/Bass/Volumes. This is very much down to your personal taste so I am not going to dictate. Again, set the JVM Masters wherever suits you.

7 – Patch Configuration

The Quick/Easy way (if you have a PC)
Download the setlist of patches that I have posted up on the JVM forum accompanying this post. You can import one or all of them using the HD500 editor. Be sure to backup your own patches first !! The patches represent a decent starting point and you will probably need to edit them to your tastes.

The Manual Way

  • Start off by creating a completely ‘Blank’ patch with no effects set and no amp model selected.
  • Move the mixer device to the very end of the effects chain by moving all of the effects blocks in front of the amp model.
  • Add an ‘FX Loop’ effect to the effects chain somewhere near the middle and ensure it is turned on.
  • Add a studio EQ just before the FX Block. No EQ changes should be set but the gain should be raised by +12dB*. This compensates for a level drop between the HD Input and the HD FX Loop.
  • The mixer channel A level should be set to around -8dB for method 2 and panned to Centre. Mixer channel B level should be set to 'Mute'. Note that this level may vary quite a bit between amps. The best advice is to flip the Amp Loop on and off and adjust the Mixer output level until the level is the same with the loop on or off.
  • Any effects that you want ‘in front’ of the JVM can now be inserted into a free block to the left of the ‘FX Loop’ block in the effects chain. Typically these might include Compressor/Overdrive/Distortion and Wah.
  • Any effects that you want in the ‘Loop’ of the JVM can now be inserted into a free block to the right of the ‘FX Loop’ block in the effects chain. Typically these might include Delay/Modulation and Reverb.
  • Try and ensure that the ‘Output’ or ‘Level’ for each individual effect does not make the overall volume level louder or quieter. This will avoid level problems with the patch overall.
  • Set ‘Input 2 Source’ to ‘Variax’ even if you do not have one. This will reduce background noise on higher gain patches and will help keep the input gain at the right levels. This setting is found within 'System Settings' but is set for each patch individually.


Do not select an amp model for an 'effects only' patch as this will then be in competition with your real pre-amp in and will probably sound poor..

* Note (Oct 2012): The FX Send level is set by the gain level on the Studio EQ and is dependent on your choice of Input sources.

If you set your POD Input Sources to Input 1 = Guitar/Input 2 = Variax (as suggested in step 9) then you should set the level to +12dB as suggested.
However, if you prefer to use set your POD Input Sources to Input 1 = Guitar/Input 2 = Same then you should set the level to just +6dB to avoid over-boosting your amp input and causing unwanted clipping.


Last edited by jimsreynolds on Sun Oct 21, 2012 3:35 pm, edited 15 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 2:08 am 
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Thanks for a very well done and useful post - Stickied

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 5:28 am 
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Yey ... immortality [smilie=headbang.gif]! Thanks mate [smilie=icon_biggrin.gif].

You have a great forum going here and its well overdue for my lazy ass to contribute something that might be useful. I will post up some additional stuff on MIDI and combining JVM Pre-amps with Amp Modelling with the HD500 when I can.


Last edited by jimsreynolds on Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 6:23 am 
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The Configuration Explained

The configuration supplied above uses a line level output (+4dBu) from the HD500 but keeps the JVM loop set to (-10dBV). The reason for this apparent mismatch is to allow HD500 Modelled Pre-amps to run at the same volume as the JVM Pre-amps. The JVM Pre-amps are way louder than the HD500 can push out, when everything is running at instrument/stompbox level.

The trick is to set all switches on the JVM and HD500 to run at instrument level (-10dBV) ... except the 1/4" output on the JVM which is set to line level. This has the effect of making the HD500 pre-amps much louder. The JVM is quite happy to run like this and (as far as I can tell) no additional noise or distortion is introduced. ONLY the final link, from HD500 out to Amp Return is set to line level.

Of course: the JVM pre-amps are effectively boosted also by this setup so it is essential to turn the patch output levels way down to put them back at the original JVM levels (about -14dB at the output using the mixer).

With things set up like this, I find that JVM Pre-amps have the same output levels into the Power Amp as they would without the HD500 being there. This preserves tone and is actually very transparent. Note that my levels are a good guideline but may vary slightly depending on your particular JVM, choice of tubes etc.

My modelled pre-amps are now in the same volume ballpark as the real JVM pre-amps. Between the HD500 Amp Model Volume and the HD500 mixer boost I can balance them out easily now, with the HD500 volume controls set near 12 O'clock.

It may be that you currently don't want to use any of the HD500 modelled pre-amps. No matter - the above configuration will work just as well ... and gives you the opportunity to play with the models later if you so choose.

So why not use Line Levels throughout?
Some people may wonder, "why not use Line Level throughout the entire HD500 and JVM 4CM Setup?". Both the JVM FX Loop and the HD500 FX Loop seem to allow line level connections to be used. Also the JVM serial loop appears to run at line level and this may appeal to some folks

There is a good reason why line level throughout does not work brilliantly for 4CM on HD500/JVM combination and I will try to explain.

  • The JVM Input expects an instrument level input. It receives its signal from the HD500 FX Loop Send. Therefore the HD500 loop level should be instrument level and must be configured as such on the HD500. Failure to do would provide a 'hot' signal to the JVM input.
  • The signal from the JVM Pre-amp is sent back to the HD500 via the JVM's FX Send. The HD500 receives this signal into it's FX Loop Return. In the previous point: we have configured the HD500 FX loop to instrument/stomp-box level. Therefore the JVM FX Loop must be configured to instrument/stompbox level also. Failure to do this will provide a 'hot' signal into the HD500 FX Return.

Hopefully, you can see from this that the requirement to keep the JVM Main input at instrument levels has a knock-on effect to levels elsewhere in the chain.

People reading this may note that there are opportunities to manually adjust levels within the chain by setting levels within the HD500 mixer levels, HD500 FX Loop Send and return levels, the main HD500 1/4" output and even channel volumes on the JVM itself. This is all true, and it is possible to get some reasonably well balanced configurations by messing with all of these parameters.

However, be prepared to fight with:

  • Nasty, unwanted distortion on clean green when you play hard.
  • Hum, buzz and howling on the hi gain channels that no gate can fix.
  • Tone Suck
  • Level matching across channels

As always though, when it comes to equipments setup: there is no such thing as 'the right way' or 'the wrong way' to do things. There is however 'the right way for you'. The logic above works for me. Knock yourselves out!


Last edited by jimsreynolds on Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:54 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 9:52 am 
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Using HD500 Amp Modellng with a JVM 4CM


Huh? I didn't buy a badass multi-channel tube-monster like the JVM so I could mess around with cheapo Amp Modelling

Me neither and usually I don't but Amp modelling is improving all the time and there are some significant benefits that you should consider before you walk on.

  • With a 4CM Rig you can switch between modelled Pre-amps and the real JVM Pre-amps seamlessly - even within a patch.
  • Some of the pre-amp tones on the HD500 are pretty good and are different enough to the JVM tones to make them interesting.
  • Typically you would use the the modelled Pre-Amps on the HD500 - not the full amp models. The (stock) JVM Power amp is clean, has good headroom and lends itself well to to supporting pre-amp Models.
  • If you gig regularly using other people's amps, for whatever reason, it can be useful to have modelled 'backups' of your preferred JVM tones to work with in those circumstances. There are JCM800, Engl and Bognor Models that are within JVM dirty territory and a Twin model that is not far off JVM Clean Green.
  • If you have the HD500 for effects already then the modelled amps are there anyway. Why not play?

To use a modelled pre-amp, in place of a JVM Pre-amp:

  • Turn down the Master volumes! By cutting out the pre-amp you are bypassing the channel volumes completely and things could get real loud. You can turn the Masters back up later, when you balance the Modelled patches off against the 'Real' patches using the Amp 'Volume' knob on the HD500.
  • Copy one of the 4CM-friendly patches that you created in the quick-setup guide above to a new patch
  • Edit the new patch to:
    - Turn off the FX Loop (this disables the entire JVM Pre-amp section for this patch)
    - Turn off the Studio EQ that went before the FX Loop.
    - Set the Mixer to around 0dB
    - Choose an amp model (pre-amp or full amp. See below for more detail).
    - Set the Gain, Presence, EQ and volume on the HD500 for the modelled amp.
    - Select a speaker model ... or turn it off completely!
    - Select a microphone model (only if you are using a full amp model).
  • Save the Patch

I set my JVM channel volumes around 2-3 O'clock to put them in the same ballpark as the HD500. I set my Clean gain around 2-3 O'clock, to get my clean green into the same volume range. Other gains I set to to whatever. This is very much a guideline and is included just to as a possible start point if you want to balance things off.

That is basically it. If you want to switch between Amp Models with the real JVM Pre-amp within a patch, set up a pedal assignment to toggle the Modelled Pre-amp on and FX loop off. If you don't want to use the real JVM pre-amp with the patch you should remove the studio EQ and FX Loop blocks completely from the patch - thereby making more effect blocks available.

When selecting the model, the pre-amp models are all listed directly after the main list of full-amp models. Remember, when using an Amp Model, none of the JVM channel controls (gain, volume, EQ) will work now, regardless of which channel is lit on the JVM. The Master, Resonance and Presence controls will work as will the Loop and Mix.

Normally you would select the Pre-Amp only version of a model but there is nothing to stop you selecting a full amp model and some people recommend it to get more control over the amp configuration and to get richer tones.

The issue of how to get great tones from the HD500 amp models is a huge subject and I will not try to cover it here. However, a contributor to the Line 6 forum called meambobbo has produced a top notch guide to creating rock and metal tones using HD Amp models. He recommends using full amp models with the speaker simulator turned off for more satisfying tones. If you are interested, check here http://line6.com/support/thread/71651 [/i]. For further information on amp model configuration, I recommend the Line 6 Forums.


Last edited by jimsreynolds on Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:01 pm, edited 8 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 5:51 am 
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Hi Gain Noise Issues

4CM setups can suffer from additional noise. By nature, 4CM messes with levels around the amplifier and will introduce multiple ground connections in, increasing the chance of a ground loop. These are a pain but can generally be remedied.

PRE-CHECKS
If there are any noise issues within the system then you will meet them doubly working with the OD1/2 Orange and Red Channels. Normally, on a healthy JVM, you would expect to hear hiss on the high gain channels - but not significant hum. You would be therefore be well advised to check for excessive noise in the system before you start trying to configure 4CM. To do this:

  • Disconnect ALL effects and cables from the JVM and turn on the switchable effects loop.
  • Plug in a working guitar with a good lead and turn the guitar volumes all the way down.
  • Select an OD Red channel and turn the channel gain level to around 11 o'clock and the volume level to around 2 o'clock. Set the master to around 9 o'clock.

Now listen. You will expect to hear hiss but if you hear significant hum then there is a problem in your system that is not related to 4CM. It may relate to cables, failing tubes, power quality or any number of other reasons and you should check elsewhere in the forum for advice on how to fix this.

If you hear only hiss then you are good to go with 4CM and know what to expect. Connect up the 4CM cables. Set the controls for 4CM. Setup a 'blank' 4CM patch on the HD as per the quick start guide above and power up the amp.

Again, plug in your guitar and cable. And turn the guitar volumes down. Change back to the OD Red channel with gain, volume and tone settings set to where you would normally use them.

KILLING HUM AND OTHER NOISES
With the 4CM running, you might hear a lot of hum. There can also be ugly 'ringing' or howling within the patch, the kind of thing that you hear where there is a ground loop or a slightly microphonic tube. Sometimes the noise has a 'phasey', glassy or 'cocked wah' quality to it.

There are three main areas that you need to check:

  1. Levels. Check everything is set as per the quick start and you are using a 'blank' 4CM patch with only the FX loop and Studio EQ blocks inline and levels set correctly. If you are happy that everything is set right and you still hear significant noise then you need to check for ...
  2. Bad Cables. Replace any suspect cables with good ones (please don't use cheapo cables with your JVM - you paid a lot for it and bad cables pretty much guarantee extra noise. Splash out on new ones or make your own using good cable and connectors). Check cable runs. Do not run 4CM cables alongside power, wherever possible. If the cables are bundled, try separating them. If that doesn't work then the last thing to check is for ...
  3. Ground loops.

Ground Loops are caused by having multiple ground connections between the JVM and the HD. These will come in through the main power connection ground for both units and also through the audio cables 2-4 in the 4CM. Ground loops in the power connections can be addressed by plugging the JVM and the HD into the same power strip. Ground loops in the audio cables are a little more tricky. I am aware of two approaches to resolvng them.

First, You can use transformer-based device like the Behringer HD400 hum destroyer to eliminate ground loops within the setup. This can be very effective and I had a good result with one of those (detailed here viewtopic.php?f=7&t=5599&start=0). Other vendors have similar devices (e.g. Art, Ebtech). Some people think, however, that transformers can have a detrimental effect on the signal and they can also reduce gain by a few dB wherever they connect. I found that the second of these was true but I didn't hear much tone suck personally.

Second, you can disconnect the ground connection within some of the the cables that connect up the 4CM. I tried this on the cables that link in and out of the JVM FX Loop and again it seems very effective (details here viewtopic.php?f=7&t=5610). This is my chosen method.

If the hum persists, there may be other reasons. Lousy power in a house or venue is commonly suspected of being a cause of noise. Some people say that power conditioners can be great at fixing this (though others say that they are snake oil). I have not tried one.

Finally, move away from the amp if you can. If you are too close, or standing in the wrong place, hum can ensue.

KILLING HISS
If you hear hiss only or have managed to kill off your hum, leaving only hiss: good news, you can fix that with noise gates. Start by putting a noise gate block directly after the FX Loop block in the chain. Set the 'Decay' parameter to 0 and then adjust the 'threshold' until the hiss just disappears.

Turn the guitar volume back up but damp the strings with your hand. For most guitars You will hear noise coming through from the pickup and cable. If this is at a reasonably low level, you can kill this noise by using a second Noise Gate at the very front of the Effects Chain. Again, set the decay to 0 and turn up the threshold until the noise just disappears. Now save the patch.

If everything is good and the guitar noise levels were initially fairly low then you should find that OD Red is now very quiet when you are not playing and should sound natural when in higher gain modes. In lower gain modes, avoid a gate unless you need it as it can mess up the note decay and sound unnatural. Remember, you can configure gates on your high gain patches only.


Tips and Tricks

Solo/Level Boosts
Many people with a JVM use the Master 2 to create a second volume level for solo boosts. However, using 4CM an alternative is to boost using a Studio EQ block at the end of the effect chain. The EQ Block does not actually make any changes to the EQ but instead has the gain set about 3-4 dB up. This works for both real and modelled pre-amp patches and is a very transparent boost.

HD Master Down and JVM Master Up
The (unmodified) JVM Power amp has a lot of negative feedback and is not prone to distortion. Therefore, power amp distortion has less effect on the sound than in some other amps. You can use this in your favour by turning down the master control on your HD and increasing the Master level on you JVM. This gives you control over master levels at your feet and works particularly well alongside the Solo Level boost trick above.

Guitar Specific EQs.
Do you use more than one guitar but need to change the EQ settings on the amp to make them sound right? Well you now have the option to use EQs within patches , positioned both in front of the JVM or in the JVM loop, to tweak the sound in to match the guitar.

The HD500, JVM and MIDI
The HD500 can change The JVM Channel, Master 1/2, Reverb on/off and FX Loop on/off whenever you change your patch on the HD500. This is hugely powerful (with some limitations) and is detailed in a separate thread here ... http://jvmforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5358&p=53630


Last edited by jimsreynolds on Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:40 pm, edited 11 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 8:20 am 
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Very useful info, thanks a lot!! I own both 410C and HD500 but never have thought about a combination setup since I use a analog pedalboard but if at any time I end up doing it, this is a must starting point.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 12:03 pm 
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Very [smilie=welcome_smiley.gif]

I have never had a decent pedalboard but totally see the point. Much easier to tweak, more intuitive, more personal and often better quality. I am slightly addicted to the flexibility of multifx though and its proving to be a hard habit to break. I needed a new FX setup a couple of months back and had a good old waver but went back to the floozy I know.

I dabble in a lot of styles and sometimes use layered modulations and delays in and out of the loop. The ability to call up a preset is the one big advantage on pedals that I am loathe to lose.

All things change mind ...


Last edited by jimsreynolds on Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:50 pm 
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Thanks for the great post jimsreynolds. I have an HD500 coming and this will be the first place I head for a proper setup. thanks

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 3:22 am 
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V welcome [smilie=icon_biggrin.gif]. The Line6 Forums are a great source of specific information too. I am constantly learning and tweaking and will update this post as I find better ways to do things.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:26 am 
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I was looking at the TC G-Major 2 but this post make me want to try the POD HD 500.
All in one solution, no need for a midi footswitch!
Are the pod HD 500 effect on apr with the GMajor 2?

Thanks


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 2:54 pm 
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I have not tried the G Major so cannot personally compare. Don't know if anyone else on the forum has tried both ...?

I get the impression round and about that the TC effects are very good quality - possibly better than the HD500. However, the HD500 does the amp modelling trick .... and does it very well. It also has a *huge* arsenal of modelled stompboxes that it can bring to bear - some are great and some are not really my thing. Most are interesting at the very least.

Having stuff in a rack is good cause floorboards have a hard life and it is a huge pain to have to replace a floorboard cause all of the switches are sticky - and recreate all of your patches. There really is very little way to protect a floorboard when you are sharing a stage. Having said that, stuff in a rack means buying a separate floor controller and there is still a bit of residual stigma around rack setups with some people. I will probably go rack next time. Probably.

In general: I would be happy with either setup.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 9:15 pm 
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Thanks for your reply!
I'm also looking at the eleven rack. I had it for a few months and it was a great unit but I only tried it with my
KRK rokit 5.
The good thing about the 11r and the pod hd 500 is that I could use them at home in my little
home recording studio.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 12:54 pm 
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Jim,

When I saw your name, I thought I recognized it. I did...from the L6 forums :)

Just wanted to offer up more props. This ALMOST makes me want my HD500 back (but not quite). I sold it and my DT25, opting to keep my m13 and get a JVM (I also have a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe I'm using until the JVM arrives).

I needed to simplify--the HD500 is great but has just a bit more going on than I want right now. I read meambobo's doc and it was very well done. However it also highlighted the HD's complexity. Maybe someday I'll want to check it out again, but the m13 seems much simpler to use, yet extremely powerful on its own.

Thanks for this thread though...keeps the HD on my radar for the future.

-Kevin

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